Suspension help!!!!!

[Tony_SS]

Oh man.... I didn't realize some 101 courses made you an expert in all the worldly fields of science and technology. I'm sorry I can't match your degree in suspension?

I have never timed my car on a cloverleaf. :lol: Seriously. It was just a hypothetical statement as reference. But everything seems to be a pizz contest with how much better your VW is vs whatever. Sorry but that's a bit ricer-ish with pulling out the keyboard racing.

I've been right here reading all of it, and I think 'baseline' testing inferior stock sway bars in conjunction with upgraded components is foolish. Only to figure out, the aftermarket makes their sway bars for a reason - because *News Flash* they are an improvement over the thin stock ones. Final characteristics of a suspension can be adjusted in a multitude of ways, but is only as good as its weakest component. So to say the magical sway bar size is the final piece of the puzzle is ridiculous. And those are my opinons that are NOT based on an internet degree.

And you're the one that thinks there are a zillion different sway bars for the g-body:

if the aftermarket figured it all out, and there is no need to make a choice, why are there so many different sway bars?

Its called a free market. But there are only 2 front sizes, and those are within 1/16 on an inch of each other: 1 5/16" and 1 3/8" All of the rears are 1". Smaller bars are labeled as 'Factory Replacement' by their maker.

So go ahead and baseline your factory sway bars, and let us know how your method works out for you, when you get to that point.

Johnny Joints!

 

[megaladon6]

so now you're backpedaling on what your car does? what a surprise. my vw doesn't handle extremely well, never said it did. i was saying that if your car is so perfect it should do much better. and i did not say my vw was faster, actually i said it was slower.
you still don't understand a baseline do you? yes the aftermarket bars are better, but which one is the best for an individuals car? i do them last because too many factors affect them and selection is kind of empirical. your opinions are based on nothing, just empty air since you've never learned how things work or compared them. i'm basing things on actual knowledge and experience. and definately not internet training. it's called college level courses.
there are 2 or 3 factory sizes, then summit alone has 1 5/16, 1 3/8 and 1 1/8, then 3 different materials, and they'll all react differently. and IIRC the f-41 bar is 1 1/4. so the 1 5/16, according to you, is no real improvement. it's only 1/16in larger right?

 

[Tony_SS]

I'm not backpedaling at all, I made a statement saying how I don't want any body roll coming off a cloverleaf doing 65.. distort that any way you like, but I'm not making claims or braggin on my cars performance, you can attack me all you like, I'm not the keyboard racer here. I never said my car is perfect, in fact its far from it. The front controls aren't allowing me to get the desired alignment I want. I'm running a big stack of shims and the alignment is still jacked. I'm going to try a set of SPC UCA's and hope their adjustability will allow for the ideal alignment specs.

that's why my old golf outhandled bmw m5's

my vw doesn't handle extremely well, never said it did.

You were braggin on how your VW can outhandle BMW M5's.. sorry, sounds a little ricey to me. Empirical? lmao... Oh the world of 'empirical' sway bars. And how is your knowledge based on experience? Tell us about your setup now? Is it not setup on factory springs? What have you done a G-body platform? Any experience there as opposed to your VW?

Go back to your link, Once again, Summit has 2 sized bars, 1 5/16 and 1 3/8, which are within 1/16" of each other, the 3rd is a factory replacement - all made of steel. The F41 is 1 1/16" and the Non F41 is exactly 1". Now even the smallest aftermarket bar at 1 5/16 will offer significant improvement over the wimpy stock F41 1 1/16. And you're still ignoring the fact that the rear bar is a pathetic 7/8". Now if you want to conduct your scientific 'baseline' testing with inferior stock parts in conjunction with performance ones - Go right ahead, but I would advise others not to - Based on actual results when I replaced the stock sway bars with the aftermarket ST ones. Again, what detailed actual experience have you setup on a G-body platform?

i'd hold off on the sway bars and get stock ones from a junkyard. the hotchkiss ones may be too stiff and non-compliant.

And the fact that you think that Hotchkis sway bars will be "non-compliant" with a set of Hotchkis springs proves that you really don't have a clue. I'm sure Hotchkis would like to know this as well. I'm sure they would let you know otherwise when you told them that their parts are "non-compliant" with each other.

All your baseline nonsense and your worldly college level courses sound like an excuse to justify the advice you gave - Don't take it personal, and I'm sorry if resorted to any personal attacks, I don't like taking things there, but I simply disagree with it based on what I've been through on my setup.

 

[megaladon6]

for clarification when i referred to taking cloverleafs i meant my jetta since it's mostly stock. i made a number of mods to my golf and did actually outhandle a few m5's on twisty roads. i had the car at the point where i couldn't use an aftermarket sway bar, it would be way too stiff overall. and the springs weren't all that stiff, but the combo(all from neuspeed by the way)? that's where i learned to test things first.
think about it, they tell you spring rates and if they're linear or progressive. they can give you the rebound and compression numbers for your shocks (and it's easy to get adjustable), they can tell you about what a change in alignment will do. nobody but a true expert (and a really good computer model) can tell you exactly how the sway bars will react with changes to the car. now i did state that the hotchkis bars would be ok with the tvs package and no other mods.(and again i point out the use of "may be" in my statement.) because yes, they are matched to the springs, car and expected alignment. but if he gets another spring and the rate is different, or the car is lower, now things are different. lowering the car allows the sway bar to "act" stiffer. that can cause problems or it can fix problems. every bit you stiffen the springs, the less stiffness you need in the sway bar. everything else you do adds another variable, that's why i say choosing a sway bar is empirical. hell tire width makes a difference! in engineering it's called a Scientific Wild *ss Guess. the more data you have to make a decision on, the better. and the less guessing.
the 1 1/8 bar is listed as factory replacement, larger than stock=>different size.
saying it's steel is like saying it's metal. well what type? steel has thousands of alloys and they are all different. then there's the heat treat (if any), temper/quench, stress relieving, extruded or cast or forged.... the various methods go on and on.
as for experience, you mean other that working at repair/performance shops for 7 years? or helping my brother with his camaro, or my friends with their cars?
your "actual results" are based on 1 bar in 1 car. so if someone builds a copy of your car, they know what it'll do. if they do something different, you don't know exactly how it'll react. that's why i give a cheap, simple way of testing for what sway bar to use. and almost nothing in my car is stock, especially not the springs.

 

[Tony_SS]

The results from aftermarket sway bars are predictable, and again I trust the aftermarket's R&D. Because, judging by the sizes available, there is a general consensus on the ideal upgrade, and thats why you don't see 1 1/2 or 1 5/8 front sway bars. Factory and factory replacement bars are just that, and one should expect nothing more. Nor should someone think they are going to 'over stiffen' their suspension with an aftermarket bar, especially matched with the same brand of springs.

I have own more than one G-body in my day, and even in the case of a 68 olds, I put a set of Hotchkis sway bars and completely factory suspension, the upgrade was noticable as it did stiffen the cornering, now IMO it would have been just right with a set of Eibachs or Hotchkis springs, as they are not that stiff to begin with and are a great compliment to a larger sway bar set.

In my Dads 70 Monte, we are running a set of Hotckis springs, which lowered it quite a bit and made ride just a little more stiff, (to be expected with a lower center of gravity) but there is still a good amount of body roll, and without a doubt we will upgrade the sway bars to really get a more controlled cornering feeling, even with casual driving.

But again IMO they are a must with any G-body, adding a factory set never helped my 84 El Camino or 78 Malibu, they both rolled like crazy under minimal cornering, but I expect better results with a 36mm hollow F-body bar thats waiting to go on the Malibu, after that, I'll have to upgrade the rear 7/8 factory bar to a 1" one to match. And I'm going with the 3/2" OPG drop springs in the Malibu as well, and I expect to feel very little body roll after those upgrades. The 3/2" OPG drop springs are bit stiffer than the Eibachs (as they should be) but still compliment the 1 3/8" and 1" ST bars nicely.

 

[megaladon6]

you can see here that if i rest the tab on the bar it only reaches part way across so i can't rest it at the top of the bar.


with the tab resting on the bar (part way down) you have this


and in these i tried to hold the tape with the tab parallel to the top of the bar


this is the stock bar on my monte ss with the f-41 package. i know the pictures aren't the greatest but you can see that it's 1 1/4. so if you're right and 1/16in difference won't make a difference, and steel is steel then this will perform pretty damn well won't it?
and i've already said everything else that i would respond to your last post with.

 

[Tony_SS]

I measured the F41 bar thats sitting in my garage using a c-clamp, then measured the gap and honest to god it is a dead on 1 1/16", and the one on my malibu (non F41) is a 1" even. The F41 I had is off my 79 Monte, it came factory with the F41 package. Now its quite possible that the F41 is 1 1/4 with the 83-88 SS package, its hard to tell from your tape measure and pics. Either way, both perform ok, for stock and IMO are ideal for stock spring rates. Again, there's still the inferior undersized rear sway bar that needs replacing.

If 'OK' is good enough, which to you I guess it is, then knock yourself out. I never said that 1/16" wont make a difference, go back a re-read everything, 1/16" does make a difference especially with a 1" rear. If indeed the factory 83-88 Monte SS F41 front bar is 1 1/4, then upgrading from that to even a 1 5/16 front and a 1" rear is a worth while improvement and money well spent. Even more ideal, IMO is going to a 1 3/8 front and 1" rear is worthy as well, but certainly not to point of "non-compliance" with a firm set of lowering springs. I think my position is pretty clear and I've stated it all a dozen times, but I wont be responding anymore this weekend, I'm off to a Power Tour stop. 8)

 

[Vern]

Tony, far from a suspension guru here. I think the gbodys have at least two sets of front & rear solid sway bars and some came with only the smaller front. Ick. I believe they also came with minor spring differences but two basic spring rates 340lb & 420lb. I have a GN that came with the thicker bars & stiffer springs. (which are still relatively soft for a performance app by todays standards.) A few years ago I added a stiff I think 760ish Eibach lowering springs, new poly end links, 235/60/15 Comp TAs (great tire) on stock 15x7s and 275/50/15 Nitto drag radials on 15x8 widened factory rims, also the triangulated supports up front and good Koni & KYB shocks. For quite a while it was a little too stiff almost harsh but has settled and broke in a bit with miles. No I would not expect it to handle with a new Vette but I am impressed with how dramatic of a handling and cornering improvement these simple upgrades made.

When I first put the 500 Cadillac motor with AC & all in the regular sprung 88 Cutlass I knew it would benefit greatly from some help in the springs & sway bar department. But I went a different cheaper route. Again its my understanding that the early 90s F bodys all came with front & rear sway bars being 32, 34, & 36mm hollow bars up front which fit our gbodys. I am told while the 34mm is the same thickness as the thicker G body bar that since it is hollow its a little stiffer than the gbody bar plus its lighter. Well I purchased a 36mm hollow from a WS6 suspensioned Fbody for cheap and used it with with a thicker stock gbody rear bar for a cheap improvement. I never drove the car with the Cad & the original spindly bars but I am sure the 36mm hollow and larger rear bar helped a ton (& new poly end links, triangulated support bars, 15x7/15x8 wheels w new bigger wider rubber) as despite the fact that the springs were too soft up front for the cars additional weight its cornering was still greatly improved from stock. Now that the 88 has been economically totaled I picked up an 87 442 and I suspect the stock but stiffer 420lb rate springs with the same 36mm hollow up front & thicker gbody bar in the rear will work even better. Again not that it will be a corner carver but it should be greatly improved over a regular slopply handling 14x6 wheeled extremely softly sprung gbod with the spindly sway bar/s. I think you will like the 36mm hollow as long as you don't go overly stiff with the springs as with it you don't need to.

I guess I just wanted to share my experience and say for the readers that even inexpensive better factory salvage yard sway/support bars, cheap Moog springs, new poly end links, & cheap used 15x7 wheels with new but still inexpensive when they need replaced anyway bigger wider rubber will go a long way for cheap. C5 killer no but way better for cheap yes.

 

[megaladon6]

honestly even i'm surprised that the GN was harsh with the stock bars.

i was looking for something else but i came across this and had to post it. although i am assuming that he meant 1 1/16 for the front bar not 1 7/16. :shock:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/Suspension.html
i just got the sway bar frame bushings in today--used 1 1/4 ones and they fit perfectly.

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

You also have to take into account the affect that weight has on suspension tuning. Using stocks as a baseline is a good idea as the two cars referenced here likely do not have the same corner weights, tire sizes or wheels. All these things affect how a car handles. IIRC, Tony SS's car has had the A/C removed, which affects the load on the front wheels. We do not know what the original poster's car is set up like. Plus, even little things like end link bushing materials and style make a difference in tuning. Also, if you want to get really serious, there are sway bars that have end links with adjustable fulcrum points, which allow you to tune the bar stiffer or softer. IMHO, Hotchkis is not the best brand of parts to buy. Global West makes a better quality product, as do many others. Hotchkis just does better marketing by getting their products on shows like Overhaulin, etc. whereas some of the smaller players cannot afford to do so.

I would not use poly bushings or any solid bushings on both ends of the rear LCA's because they will over stiffen the axle, and reduce articulation, thus making the axle more likely to lose traction when the angles change and it can't keep up. I would use a spherical bearing arm, like offered by Global or Maximum Motorsports. A friend of mine has the MM arms on his Mustang ( also with a 4 link like a G body), and the amount of articulation is amazing! With the springs removed, you can put one end at full droop and the other at full compression. Try that with any other bushing style. You need that to overcome some of the problems that a solid axle rear suspension experiences when used in a handling application.