Tall ball joints, A arms and spindle discussion-trying to find a good combo

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GuysMonteSS

Royal Smart Person
May 21, 2011
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Kentville,Nova Scotia,Canada
What are you using for springs and shocks? I'm trying to decide if I want to pull the trigger on coil overs. The big thing to me there, is with all of the variables with playing with the suspension to order a generic 1, 1.5 or 2" drop spring. By the time I buy 2 possibly 3 sets of springs, I could have paid for coil overs

I'm not sure exactly what are on the front for springs as they were on the car when I bought it,but they are thick and stiff and still work fine.
The rears are Eibach lowering springs that I got from Pontiacgp a couple of years ago.
Shocks are Viking double adjustables all around.
It sure seems to make for a good working combination.
Guy
 
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motorheadmike

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Nov 18, 2009
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Hey bud, thanks allot for the input.... Have you contributed a thing to this thread or just here to talk trash?

So you want me to show you how misguided and ignorant you are being?

Okay, here we go...

Let's start with your potential spring selection being based upon their lowering height versus measured rate.

Dismissing control arms due to their lack of powdercoating options.

Based upon what I see here you are arbitrarily cobbling together critical suspension pieces (control arms, spindle heights, and ball joint length) based upon a skewed qualitative analysis of size. Moar is moar better. Moar longerer. Moar thickerer. Moar rederer.

If you aren't going to take the opportunity to allow an engineered kit to be utilized and just buy things at random you are going to end up mismatched parts that fight each other and upset the driving/suspension characteristics.

With that in mind: What is the current (or expected) F/R and corner balance with the drivetrain set in place, and you in the driver's seat? Have you allowed for appropriate weight transfer during acceleration and dive both on and off camber? How much camber gain/loss are you going to require to accommodate both scenarios during performance driving? What is your experience with understeer and snap oversteer? Because even the best G-body still exhibits these characteristics at the most inopportune time. Are you running a big bar/small spring, small bar/big spring, or big bar/big spring combo? This is going to impact your shock rebound and compression requirements along with the weight considerations I mentioned at the beginning (not even touching on reciprocating, sprung and unsprung masses). This will also translate into the amount of detectable bumpsteer you have. Tire and wheel combination (width, weight, sidewall height, etc) can have a nasty influence on control - nothing better than being in an off camber corner, understeering while braking, with the wheels tram-lining in a rut. Biggerer is not always betterer.

Funny how it has come full circle - almost like it needs to work together in synergy, eh?

Tire compound and contact patch will ultimately make or break a well designed combination. Or mask a shitty one.

Ironically you could be better off welding the suspension solid with the car set as low as possible and run some large sidewall tires - and use those to tune the suspension (by basically making a 3200lb go kart) - as opposed to slapping some stuff together based upon assumption and conjecture or because it comes in red.

Your best bet is to start off near stock and test the car in a racing setting. Get to the car's and your limits (believe me you are way more limited than the car) and adjust one thing at a time - readapt - and make another logic based incremental change. And keep asking yourself: What is the car doing that it shouldn't? Is it a mechanical limitation or a personal one? Can or should I change to suit it - or does the car require an engineered solution? Or am I at a point of diminishing returns because this is still a G-body?
 
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Silent viewer

Royal Smart Person
May 9, 2007
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So you want me to show you how misguided and ignorant you are being?

Okay, here we go...

Let's start with your potential spring selection being based upon their lowering height versus measured rate.

Dismissing control arms due to their lack of powdercoating options.

Based upon what I see here you are arbitrarily cobbling together critical suspension pieces (control arms, spindle heights, and ball joint length) based upon a skewed qualitative analysis of size. Moar is moar better. Moar longerer. Moar thickerer. Moar rederer.

If you aren't going to take the opportunity to allow an engineered kit to be utilized and just buy things at random you are going to end up mismatched parts that fight each other and upset the driving/suspension characteristics.

With that in mind: What is the current (or expected) F/R and corner balance with the drivetrain set in place, and you in the driver's seat? Have you allowed for appropriate weight transfer during acceleration and dive both on and off camber? How much camber gain/loss are you going to require to accommodate both scenarios during performance driving? What is your experience with understeer and snap oversteer? Because even the best G-body still exhibits these characteristics at the most inopportune time. Are you running a big bar/small spring, small bar/big spring, or big bar/big spring combo? This is going to impact your shock rebound and compression requirements along with the weight considerations I mentioned at the beginning (not even touching on reciprocating, sprung and unsprung masses). This will also translate into the amount of detectable bumpsteer you have. Tire and wheel combination (width, weight, sidewall height, etc) can have a nasty influence on control - nothing better than being in an off camber corner, understeering while braking, with the wheels tram-lining in a rut. Biggerer is not always betterer.

Funny how it has come full circle - almost like it needs to work together in synergy, eh?

Tire compound and contact patch will ultimately make or break a well designed combination. Or mask a shitty one.

Ironically you could be better off welding the suspension solid with the car set as low as possible and run some large sidewall tires - and use those to tune the suspension (by basically making a 3200lb go kart) - as opposed to slapping some stuff together based upon assumption and conjecture or because it comes in red.

Your best bet is to start off near stock and test the car in a racing setting. Get to the car's and your limits (believe me you are way more limited than the car) and adjust one thing at a time - readapt - and make another logic based incremental change. And keep asking yourself: What is the car doing that it shouldn't? Is it a mechanical limitation or a personal one? Can or should I change to suit it - or does the car require an engineered solution? Or am I at a point of diminishing returns because this is still a G-body?

I have an idea since you would rather insult me. You do not know squat about me, what I have done to my cars or how long I have been doing this not to mention the end goal. So, just stay the heck off of my post or any future posts I make. Deal? OK good. You think I am an idiot, I am good with that. I won't respond to any more of you posts on here so you are wasting your breath and that then will make you the idiot key board cowboy looking for a fight.

I will stick to what other people have already tested and prove works. That was the point of this post and have since spoke to 3 manufacturers today and all have different opinions.
 
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motorheadmike

Geezer
Nov 18, 2009
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Saskatchewan, Truckistan
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superbon54

G-Body Guru
Apr 15, 2014
755
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Wisco
Regalman, I think you’re looking to do something similar to what I did. PM me and I can give you some pointers on the mods I did. It wasn’t just parts, but pickup points and stiffening as well. The biggest things are balance between front and rear as well as reinforcing the chassis. It’s easy these days to put together front suspension geometry that handles, but the options are much more limited in the rear. And none of it will work with a stock wet noodle frame. Be prepared to fail too. I had to replace a brand new set of front UCAs because they hit the wheels (9.5” wide) before full lock.
BCD27F66-437D-432D-9C16-9CC96B650B69.jpeg
 
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Silent viewer

Royal Smart Person
May 9, 2007
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Regalman, I think you’re looking to do something similar to what I did. PM me and I can give you some pointers on the mods I did. It wasn’t just parts, but pickup points and stiffening as well. The biggest things are balance between front and rear as well as reinforcing the chassis. It’s easy these days to put together front suspension geometry that handles, but the options are much more limited in the rear. And none of it will work with a stock wet noodle frame. Be prepared to fail too. I had to replace a brand new set of front UCAs because they hit the wheels (9.5” wide) before full lock.
View attachment 109553
Awesome, I'll shoot you a message in the morning. I'm installing a new kitchen at the moment and getting the look from the woman lol
 

carnutjw

G-Body Guru
Sep 17, 2017
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I am not a moderator, but to Motorhead and Regalman- RELAX. I'm cooler.smarter, faster, taller, and prettier than both of you. Just kidding. My life is OK at best, Please don't turn this into one of those constant pissing contest forums. We're mostly a bunch of dudes trying to enjoy cars with 50 year old technology as a baseline, and every aftermarket supplier has their own "best thing ever" to fix our woes. Maybe we can hug it out halfway(Michigan?) and just relish in the fact that other guys know the struggle is real.
 
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Silent viewer

Royal Smart Person
May 9, 2007
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A follow up, I had been waiting on info from SC&C. According to mark, the spohn 756 arm that is for a tall spindle upgrade will work "okay" for this application, they lack some of the features from the SPC arms. He said the the SPC arms are better in some ways but the spohn arms and his tall ball joints makes a "impromptu stage 2-plus package". That makes perfect sense. The single biggest thing holding me back on the SPC arms is the lack of bump stop but everyone seems to say that the only time that they will make contact is if the car is on a lift or jack/stand. Being fully adjustable is probably going to over ride my wants for the bump stop.
 
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Silent viewer

Royal Smart Person
May 9, 2007
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I'm sure I could. I am curious if the shocks will limit the travel by themselves. I will deal with that when I get to it. The frame is sitting bare right now. I am doing all of the boxing and bracing and then blasting the frame for either powder or paint before we can start hanging parts. Now if I can get some time to work on a car. Between long work weeks, house projects and kids I do not have allot of time right now
 
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