Turbo 3800 T56 Grand Prix

[bs009]

You are my new idle. I have a Turbo Monte. I gathered all the parts and engines to put a Series Two in my car, but I put it on hold years ago and built my original 3.8 into a intercooled blow through engine. I can say I am happy with the choice. That car runs really good. Two years ago I bought a 2003 GS. I have a stage one kit on that car. Tuned ECM and a 3.5 pulley. It runs pretty good too. I recently bought a 81 Buick Century. The plan is to put a Series Two in that car and later the Supercharged engine out of the GS in that car. The GS still has a lot of life left in it though, so it will be a while. I have been daily driving the Century because it gets good mileage and is comfortable to drive, but I can't wait. I think you have an awesome combination. I don't know why more people don't go that route. Probably because it is not all laid out for them? Love your car and what you have done to it.

That's really cool! A blow through setup sounds like a pretty tricky project, but I'm definitely not a carb guy myself so I know very little about them Sounds like a really cool project though!
3.5" pulley is pretty stout, If you're interested in trying Ethanol it's a really good car to do it for. My 02 GS is all stock but with 60# injectors and runs on E85 but it feels way faster than my 99 Regal did with headers and a 3.4" pulley, and it's so much more consistent. It's frickin magical
The century sounds like a really cool swap too!



I definitely am surprised there's not more 3800 swaps in longitudinal RWD cars. These engines are really reliable, really easy to tune, they're cheap, and can make gobs of power when you turbocharge it even on the stock bottom end. I don't know if anyone has actually found the limit of the stock rods and crank yet.

There are a couple reasons I can think of as to why it's not in more RWD cars though:

• To even put it in the car you need to be able to weld motor mounts and modify the exhaust for most cars.
• There's basically 0 parts you can buy for these things off the shelf to make the swap easier for a longitudinal car.
• Turbocharging or supercharging one seems like a really difficult task. The M90 faces the firewall and needs to be welded to turn it around, or you need to get a different case or just a totally different supercharger. A turbo needs exhaust manifolds to be built or modified to make it work. Takes a lot of time and to get things right and most projects seem to be abandoned before they're running.
• Transmission options are a real grey area for these things. A lot of people who are into 3800's don't even know these things came RWD with a stick or auto trans. Even a lot of people who are planning to go RWD will create threads asking about what transmissions are out there.
  • The stock 4l60e is a real enigma for these cars. It shares some components with the V8 4l60e, but the input shaft and pump are different and apparently the lengths are different too. This makes it so you have to play detective when you rebuild the trans or reassemble it to figure out what parts are V6 specific and intended to be there or what aftermarket parts you can or can't use. The V6 version is weaker than the V8 version but it can actually handle a decent amount of power from what I've seen so far, I'm sure it would do way better with a good rebuild though.
  • There is an adapter you can buy for these things to bolt them up to a 350/400 trans, but again most people aren't aware that it exists
  • The T5 trans these came with for the RWD manual Camaro can't hang at all and good transmission swaps will run thousands of dollars. Most manual trans swaps are not documented at all and even people who know almost everything about these cars don't know how to put a good stick behind them or haven't ventured into that area.
• Not a lot of documented details about these in the 3800 world or other people who've really gotten into them in a RWD setup. For sure those cars are out there and I've heard of a few but I can never find a lot of details about what they've done with them or how they've done it.
• Stock PCM is starting to show it's age with what it can do compared to some of the LS PCMs out there.

Probably the biggest reason though is that most people who get into or want to get into 3800's do it because they're in cheap FWD cars that can be easily modded and make a good amount of power in. Others who started modding a 3800 did it because they already had the car and realized what you could do with it. I don't think a lot of them want to throw thousands of dollars into putting it into a RWD car especially with how easy it is to LS swap a car instead and probably spend less to make more power, or at least that's the impression most people are seeing on the internet.
There are some people out there though that are really serious about the 3800 and will throw thousands of dollars into the 4t65e trans for parts that don't even exist anymore so who knows. The problem with most 3800 builds is that they have a 4t65e bolted to them and are limited to whatever power that thing can hold. I'd argue very few people have properly tested these engines because of that.
If I can inspire people to instead direct their effort into something more rewarding like putting a proper transmission behind these things or if I can bring more exposure to what you can do with these engines then I've accomplished my goal haha!

I can hear people already writing comments about LS Swaps right now. Obviously there's nothing wrong with an LS swap, of course it's an amazing engine but I'm honestly just tired of seeing them everywhere I go myself. I wanted to have something different that still can keep up or outrun them to show that there's more things out there you can try.

 

[bs009]

My M90 with a 2.8" pulley and S1X cam made 11 PSI on E85 and was very close to maxing out the stock l67 maf. Can always scale it or go to the N* or LS maf but I never got there. Ended up running a 12.60 with some additional time left on timing and chassis tuning that I never chased.

I'll be on PowerTour so I'll hopefully run across you

Strangely enough, I'm still somehow getting away with using the L67 MAF I figured it was because it was under boost pressure but others have told me the MAF can account for changes in air density like that though. My best guess is that it's because of the sharp bend in my charge pipe right in front of the throttle body. I do have an LS MAF ready to go for when I get closer to maxing this thing out, but I think by the time that happens I'll be running a different PCM. I'm hoping to switch to Holley HP EFI soon so I can more easily tune a big cam on E85.
I figured if I'm running the stock PCM for something like the ST5 or the Intense stage 4 blower cam I'm going to have to run in open loop. I do a lot of road trips and the car runs on E85, open loop and E85 on a trip like power tour sounds like a nightmare because of how inconsistent E85 is from pump to pump.

I'm hoping to dyno it soon though to see how much power it's actually putting down. I've trapped at 109 in the 1/4 mile under 14 psi before I ported the horrendous intake the early RWD L36's have and the heads. I haven't bothered to run it again though because of the 2.41:1 rear gear ratio. I'm guessing it's putting down close to 400hp to the tires at around 20 psi with the current setup. Once I can get a cam, ECM, and better turbo(s) I'm hoping to really start seeing where this heads up to.

Be cool to run into you at Power Tour! I met a guy there in 2018 with an LS swapped 2+2 at Bowling Green but I think he might've been from PA though

 

[87National]

That's really cool! A blow through setup sounds like a pretty tricky project, but I'm definitely not a carb guy myself so I know very little about them Sounds like a really cool project though!
3.5" pulley is pretty stout, If you're interested in trying Ethanol it's a really good car to do it for. My 02 GS is all stock but with 60# injectors and runs on E85 but it feels way faster than my 99 Regal did with headers and a 3.4" pulley, and it's so much more consistent. It's frickin magical
The century sounds like a really cool swap too!



I definitely am surprised there's not more 3800 swaps in longitudinal RWD cars. These engines are really reliable, really easy to tune, they're cheap, and can make gobs of power when you turbocharge it even on the stock bottom end. I don't know if anyone has actually found the limit of the stock rods and crank yet.

There are a couple reasons I can think of as to why it's not in more RWD cars though:

• To even put it in the car you need to be able to weld motor mounts and modify the exhaust for most cars.
• There's basically 0 parts you can buy for these things off the shelf to make the swap easier for a longitudinal car.
• Turbocharging or supercharging one seems like a really difficult task. The M90 faces the firewall and needs to be welded to turn it around, or you need to get a different case or just a totally different supercharger. A turbo needs exhaust manifolds to be built or modified to make it work. Takes a lot of time and to get things right and most projects seem to be abandoned before they're running.
• Transmission options are a real grey area for these things. A lot of people who are into 3800's don't even know these things came RWD with a stick or auto trans. Even a lot of people who are planning to go RWD will create threads asking about what transmissions are out there.
  • The stock 4l60e is a real enigma for these cars. It shares some components with the V8 4l60e, but the input shaft and pump are different and apparently the lengths are different too. This makes it so you have to play detective when you rebuild the trans or reassemble it to figure out what parts are V6 specific and intended to be there or what aftermarket parts you can or can't use. The V6 version is weaker than the V8 version but it can actually handle a decent amount of power from what I've seen so far, I'm sure it would do way better with a good rebuild though.
  • There is an adapter you can buy for these things to bolt them up to a 350/400 trans, but again most people aren't aware that it exists
  • The T5 trans these came with for the RWD manual Camaro can't hang at all and good transmission swaps will run thousands of dollars. Most manual trans swaps are not documented at all and even people who know almost everything about these cars don't know how to put a good stick behind them or haven't ventured into that area.
• Not a lot of documented details about these in the 3800 world or other people who've really gotten into them in a RWD setup. For sure those cars are out there and I've heard of a few but I can never find a lot of details about what they've done with them or how they've done it.
• Stock PCM is starting to show it's age with what it can do compared to some of the LS PCMs out there.

Probably the biggest reason though is that most people who get into or want to get into 3800's do it because they're in cheap FWD cars that can be easily modded and make a good amount of power in. Others who started modding a 3800 did it because they already had the car and realized what you could do with it. I don't think a lot of them want to throw thousands of dollars into putting it into a RWD car especially with how easy it is to LS swap a car instead and probably spend less to make more power, or at least that's the impression most people are seeing on the internet.
There are some people out there though that are really serious about the 3800 and will throw thousands of dollars into the 4t65e trans for parts that don't even exist anymore so who knows. The problem with most 3800 builds is that they have a 4t65e bolted to them and are limited to whatever power that thing can hold. I'd argue very few people have properly tested these engines because of that.
If I can inspire people to instead direct their effort into something more rewarding like putting a proper transmission behind these things or if I can bring more exposure to what you can do with these engines then I've accomplished my goal haha!

I can hear people already writing comments about LS Swaps right now. Obviously there's nothing wrong with an LS swap, of course it's an amazing engine but I'm honestly just tired of seeing them everywhere I go myself. I wanted to have something different that still can keep up or outrun them to show that there's more things out there you can try.

Thanks for posting.......I've been slowly collecting parts for a similar swap in my 87 turbo T. Bought the car as a roller 8 years ago and because of its heritage.....I can't bring myself to ls swap it......this car needs a turbo buick 6. So far I have an l36 from an 01 firebird, a 2wd 4l80e (plan is to use the speedway adapter and a custom built torque converter), an he351 turbo, hotside using a pair of front fwd manifolds, powerstroke intercooler, and tuned with HP tuners.

I plan to upgrade valve springs and keep the stock cam. Should be able to make 400-450 whp with this combination.

 

[565bbchevy]

Did you try to sell this a few years back in the Detroit area?

 

[olds307 and 403]

You have the coolest ride on this site! Gorgeous car and love the drivetrain. The 4L60E was lucky to survive, they fail all the time. I real miracle is the stock 2.41 rear end. I blew mine up twice behind a mild Olds 403. Glad you shared your car!

 

[bs009]

Thanks for posting.......I've been slowly collecting parts for a similar swap in my 87 turbo T. Bought the car as a roller 8 years ago and because of its heritage.....I can't bring myself to ls swap it......this car needs a turbo buick 6. So far I have an l36 from an 01 firebird, a 2wd 4l80e (plan is to use the speedway adapter and a custom built torque converter), an he351 turbo, hotside using a pair of front fwd manifolds, powerstroke intercooler, and tuned with HP tuners.

I plan to upgrade valve springs and keep the stock cam. Should be able to make 400-450 whp with this combination.

Nice! That's a good plan! You should be okay with the L36 at that power level as long as you can keep the knock out of it. If I were to run the L36 again I would have gapped the top piston ring down a little bit though to keep it from destroying a piston like mine did. E85 was really helpful for keeping things cool too, I didn't break mine until I was on a road trip and had to run 93 in it and didn't turn the boost down for it. 4l80e is what I would do if I were going automatic too!

Did you try to sell this a few years back in the Detroit area?

Yeah I've gone back and forth about it sometimes, kinda want to try another platform but I have a hard time letting go of things especially with the car's history. I eventually got really tired of all of the tire kickers, low-ballers, and people crying to me about how they really want it and can't pay for it. Fbook marketplace is probably the worst place to sell a car IMO.
I've realized I don't actually need to sell it to work on another project and I really don't have any reason to let it go. I'm never going to get back the money I've put into it anyway so might as well just double down lol

You have the coolest ride on this site! Gorgeous car and love the drivetrain. The 4L60E was lucky to survive, they fail all the time. I real miracle is the stock 2.41 rear end. I blew mine up twice behind a mild Olds 403. Glad you shared your car!

I'm sure there's cooler cars here but I'll take it! Thanks!
I think the only reason why the rear end is still kicking is because I haven't ran the car on drag radials and haven't really been launching the car that hard with the 4l60e and it's factory converter. Now that I have a T56 in here though I think it's really going to take a beating lol
I have a new rear end on the way so if this one breaks it's not going to be a huge deal at least haha!

 

[565bbchevy]

Yeah I've gone back and forth about it sometimes, kinda want to try another platform but I have a hard time letting go of things especially with the car's history. I eventually got really tired of all of the tire kickers, low-ballers, and people crying to me about how they really want it and can't pay for it. Fbook marketplace is probably the worst place to sell a car IMO.

I was considering buying it because I liked what you had already done to the car at that time and it seemed like a unique build but in the end I really wanted a Regal as my next project.

 

[87National]

Not a lot of documented details about these in the 3800 world or other people who've really gotten into them in a RWD setup. For sure those cars are out there and I've heard of a few but I can never find a lot of details about what they've done with them or how they've done it.

Seems like you are one of 5 or 6 that have documented a 3800 series 2 swap in a gbody....the "pig" on this forum, an l67 in a cutlass was circulating the interwebs ~10 years ago, and maybe 2-3 turbobuick members.

I thought we would see more turbo buick guys jump on the band wagon by now as the LC2 blocks and 86-87 parts become harder to come by.

 

[Game Over]

Great project!

 

[bs009]

Seems like you are one of 5 or 6 that have documented a 3800 series 2 swap in a gbody....the "pig" on this forum, an l67 in a cutlass was circulating the interwebs ~10 years ago, and maybe 2-3 turbobuick members.

I thought we would see more turbo buick guys jump on the band wagon by now as the LC2 blocks and 86-87 parts become harder to come by.

I remember seeing the L67 Cutlass I think you're referring to back when I was doing the L27 swap in 2008 and it was an inspiration for me and basically proved that swaps like this are possible. I was still in High School and didn't know what I was getting into but Dave from Triple Edge Performance (builder/owner of that Cutlass) was pretty helpful when I asked questions. Too bad the website he had is gone but there's still some images circulating on the web about it. Afaik that was probably one of the first L67 g-body swaps out there but definitely the first one I saw.

1986 Oldsmobile Cutlass L67 Swap

For those that havent seen the car or any info on it here is a pic under the hood after it was first fired up a little over a year ago. Below is a lin

www.grandprixforums.com

The 3800 seems like the most ideal swap for a turbo Regal looking for a better engine IMO. Still a Buick motor but with much better flowing heads, a stronger base to start from, a PCM you can tune yourself, and plenty of aftermarket support for it.
Then there's things like the exhaust and motor mounts, and trans adapter plates that probably make the task a bit overwhelming though.