now the frigging started went.

[pontiacgp]

Pontiacgp, i love you but a solenoid is a relay. 2 contacts would be 12v + and - to energize the coil (in this case ign power and starter casing to engine ground) and battery voltage input and output. In that diagram you are using the battery output of the remote solenoid to energize the solenoid at the starter via small wire from battery post to "s" terminal. That Is why Fords don't have this solenoid on the starter. In the diagram you are using 2 solenoids to power that starter. If that solenoid at the starter goes bad that starter will not start.

A solenoid is a relay, the wire from the s to the bat terminal is bypassing the relay. The relay is what gets heat soaked.

 

[crucial118]

Thanks for the diagram, I remember that from my 3rd year in the electrical apprenticeship, 12 years ago. True that but "s" is energizing the coil so you are still using the relay portion of that solenoid

 

[pontiacgp]

I give up, you win. Good luck with wiring your cable directly to the starter motor

 

[drogg1]

A solenoid isn't a relay. That's why they have different names. A solenoid generally has a coil which when excited, results in the linear motion of something. In the case of the starter solenoid, it moves to engage the starter gear with flywheel teeth.

If you completely bypass the solenoid, the starter gear will not mesh with the flywheel.

The reason you use a "Ford solenoid" is to prevent heat soak and it still does this how Steve showed to wire it. The current the starter requires is what causes the heat. This current still bypasses the starter solenoid. When power is applied to the Ford solenoid, current travels from the battery, direct my to the starter windings and back to ground through the case. The starter solenoid contacts only have to manage the current drawn by itself in order to engage the starter gear.

 

[crucial118]

Gotcha. I understand the pinion gear push out to mesh with the ring gear but don't understand how that diagram is eliminating the problem of header heat soak. The way I see it, and I must be wrong, is it is just adding another solenoid to the equation. And the pic of the starter I have is not shaped like the motion pic pontiacgp posted. I thought the push out of the pinion gear was done within the starter itself. I can't see how that is done on the starter pic I posted.

***I stand corrected my starter looks as pictured***

 

[pontiacgp]

with the stock wiring the S wire sends a signal when you turn the key to trip the relay which in turn sends power to the starter. The relay in the solenoid allows a small S wire to close the relay The connection from the S terminal to the battery terminal in the solenoid is the part that gets affected by heat. When you bypass the S wire the power travels in reverse and goes from the battery cable terminal to the S and the solenoid is only used to mesh the gears.

 

[crucial118]

I'm still lost on this one guys. I'm not trying to be a d**k, but I don't understand what yall are trying to tell me. Whatever is going wrong within the solenoid will still go wrong if wired this way. I understand it needing to be wired that way to extend the pinion gear, but the only difference that I'm seeing is that instead of using a #14 ignition wire to excite the relay, you are know using a #4gauge tap from BATT terminal to S. If header heat is affecting anything within the solenoid I don't see how wiring it this way helps other than allowing more ampacity on the S terminal(via #4 gauge tap). In stock form yes, you turn the key 12v goes to S and closes contacts allowing battery power to go from BATT terminal on starter to starter windings to make pinion spin and simultaneously extends the pinion gear. What I'm seeing in the diagram, is you turn the key and 12v goes to the remote relay which in turn closes contacts and sends battery voltage(via #4 battery wire) to 2 terminals simultaneously(S and BATT via the tap wire), which cause the starter solenoid to energize, extend the pinion gear and close contacts to allow battery voltage to go from BATT terminal to starter windings to make the pinion spin. Am I wrong? If the solenoid in this diagram goes bad, will the starter not work? Are we not just adding a relay to control a solenoid?

 

[drogg1]

I mean basically, yes, it just eliminates wiring a second wire down to the starter and so you can then use a heavy gauge wire which would, at least theoretically, better hold up to heat whether in the form of high current draw or exhaust heat.

I agree, it doesn't seem to make sense as you're not eliminating using the solenoid at all, because you can't, and so it seems it would still get too heat soaked. However, in practice, wiring a "Ford solenoid" as shown does seem to eliminate starter heat soak issues.

 

[crucial118]

Thanks drogg1, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

 

[Tim benigno]

Thank u guys for all the input, we got the car home. We changed the batt and I had to go under with a screwdriver and jump the starter. Next day off I will check the voltage and get back to u. Thanks again.