now the frigging started went.

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I hate spell correct. Lol I meant to say damn I love this forum!
 
That being said, the same moving parts of the starter solenoid are still moving with the added remote relay. The only change is using a heavier gauge wire to energize the circuit. I guess this heavier gauge wire is sufficient to carry the load of the needed amperage to overcome the resistance of the heat soak.
 
Drogg1 if you look at your diagram BATT output(M) to starter is connected to S terminal. I just checked with my DVM and there is continuity between S and BATT output, not BATT terminal

Yes, as the diagram shows, the S terminal is connected to the M terminal through a coil of the solenoid which appears as a short or continuity at DC. I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to say this means. Stock, positive voltage is applied to the B terminal from the battery. When starting, positive voltage is applied to the S terminal. This causes current to flow through the solenoid pull-in and hold-in coils as well as out of the M terminal through the motor windings to begin spinning the motor. In probably milliseconds, the solenoid pull-in coil magnetic field pushes the starter gear to engage the flexplate and connects the B terminal to the M terminal through the motor contacts.

The S terminal just pulls the round copper piece to allow the power of the battery cable pull the coil to engage the starter gear and turn the starter motor. With the remote solenoid the battery cable is powered when you turn the key to the start position. With the power being fed to the battery terminal on the starter terminal from the remote solenoid there is no need for the S terminal to have any power. Go to 15:20 on this video and you'll see the copper part I mean. When the solenoid is heat soak the problem is the spring will not allow the copper piece to contact the S terminal to allow the battery terminal to do it's job.

The S terminal must be connected and have voltage applied to it for there to be a connection from the battery to the motor. At least according to the schematic I posted. Without the S terminal having any applied voltage to it, the solenoid or relay will never connect the battery terminal to the motor terminal. Additionally, and equally as important, the starter gear will not be pushed out to engage with the flexplate.

Now, if you were able to connect the cable from the remote solenoid directly to the M motor terminal, then sure the motor would spin. However, that obviously doesn't solve the starter gear engagement problem.

There is nothing to be done about the heat soak other than moving the headers away, using a small starter, or clocking the solenoid to a different position.

I'm beginning to think the Ford solenoid is really more for the convenience of only running one heavy wire to the starter rather than multiple wires, some of which may be easily fried. Additionally, and what maybe I like the most, is it makes it really easy to wire a button to bump the motor over for tuning or valve lash setting.

By all means though, please see if it will start without the S terminal connected. I will admit I was wrong but I will also be thoroughly confused.
 
I'll pick up a starter from a yard and put a battery cable on the battery terminal and ground the body of the starter and I'll see what happens when I attach the cable to a battery...I'm not waiting for spring for my beer..:friday:
 
That being said, the same moving parts of the starter solenoid are still moving with the added remote relay. The only change is using a heavier gauge wire to energize the circuit. I guess this heavier gauge wire is sufficient to carry the load of the needed amperage to overcome the resistance of the heat soak.

it's not the gauge of the wire that is the problem. It's the spring that holds the copper from making contact between the S terminal and the battery terminal. GM had a lighter solenoid spring that was designed to help with this problem. GM part #1958679, but it is unfortunately discontinued
 
I just checked it with a battery and 2 #4 gauge jumpers on the starter I had posted earlier. I went from battery neg to case and battery pos to M and unless the starter I have is bad, Drogg1 was right it will not energize the coil. Just kept sparking like shorted as he said. Sorry Pontiac, looks like you might loose that beer.
 
Ok, I take that back. There is no way of accessing the M terminal. The terminal that I thought was M(the bottom terminal in my pic) is actually a ground for the starter windings. So I was shorting the starter casing out with my jumpers. Guess you have to take the solenoid housing apart to access the M terminal. I might do that tomorrow just to see.
 
Thank u guys for all the input, we got the car home. We changed the batt and I had to go under with a screwdriver and jump the starter. Next day off I will check the voltage and get back to u. Thanks again.

If you had to jump the starter it sound like the solenoid is bad. You can replace just the solenoid if it's bad.
 
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