LS Tesla swap
- Thread starter carnutjw
- Start date
- Status
I agree to an extent - performance aside, ICE vehicles are not sustainable given how inefficient they are at converting the chemical energy stored in liquid fuel into useable energy (mainly movement). Considering that there are limited resources on this planet and that the population is always growing, I consider that a pretty big deal.
However, that’s not to say that I think all ICE vehicles should be junked immediately. There is nothing more sustainable than using what you already have, and I believe that all existing ICE vehicles should be kept serviceable and in operation as long as they possibly can. On the other side of that coin, I also believe that the production of new ICE vehicles should be drastically ramped down save for certain purpose-built ICE vehicles where EVs have not caught up yet (construction, freight, etc.)
EVs are bullshyt as long as they keep closing nuke plants and building windmills and gas turbines.
That's the opinion of a nuclear engineer who has a hand in managing the fuel of 3, 40-year old 1.2GWe tea kettles here in the great South Jersey swamp lands.
That's the opinion of a nuclear engineer who has a hand in managing the fuel of 3, 40-year old 1.2GWe tea kettles here in the great South Jersey swamp lands.
I disagree, to an extent.
The technology used in EVs and to support them large scale is more environmentally harmful in an impact side than the ICE vehicles they replace.
Batteries use very toxic materials that are very destructive to mine. They are also in very limited supplies, and, located in areas that strategically speaking are very volatile. Simple put, the supply chains are not secure at all.
Areas of the country (looking at you california) cannot control the wire fires they have nor maintain the electrical infrastructure they have either imagine increased infrastructure.
Power generation capacity is an issue. Nuclear is extremely expensive, and, there's limits on waste processing and transportation,not to mention security. Well trained operators are in short supply, often ex military. Alternatives have planetary impacts not properly studied and will, as a fact, have climate impacts of their own. Alternative, massive natural gas or coal plants are quicker, cheaper to build, easier to operate with less training and downside in accidents, but...
Wind farms reduce air circulation, affect dust migration (cloud seeding), and in the ocean, currents. Solar changes the albedo, alters air current upwelling due to heat exchange with atmosphere, and like wind, that reduces the volume of moisture rich hotter air reaching the upper atmosphere where it again, falls as rain elsewhere. The technology is not very recyclable in many cases. Look into all the wind blades going to landfills, so on so forth. Those precious metals needed to plate the electronics have to be mined, but people don't want mines. Hint: mine able gold in many areas also needs to be cyanide leached because of the poor grades of ores or the fine nature of particles to capture. Other available areas are again, anti mining (Alaska) or insecure areas. Don't get started on rare earth's and who controls them. Hint - Russia and China. How do we get along with those guys?
Look,I could keep going in the interest of good natured debate, and maybe we could.
But, and here's the thing. Realistically if you put aside the activism and politics there are better cost effective answers.
#1) you live in a big city? You're getting light rail. Replace a couple highway lanes with subways/elevated tracks. Hike excise taxes locally inside the city through the roof on vehicles.
#2) back off the ev forced mandates. Go with hybrids. Electric wheels, regenerative brakes, small gas motors to charge so you dont need all that power gen and infrastructure. Helps rural America where its. Ot economically feasible to make those huge ev infrastructure investments.
#3) leave more traditional ICEs for the more rural areas where they're going to be needed. If we can build low production camaros and corvettes we can build gas pickups and traditional (large functional) SUVs. Screw that "crossover cralp", those can be hybrids.
The idea of "evs for everyone, it's the only way" is garbage and not realistic. Don't forget, the more money you print to lay for it, the more money you need to print because inflation makes it all cost more - while hurting everyone but the super rich in the process. Or weren't you aware that even all those emissions saved in the Paris accord are offset by the fact china/india/etc 'undeveloped/developing' countries are not only allowed, but actually GROWING their emissions by an amount larger than. What the "west" is cutting by disrupting the heck out of their entire countries.
The masses don't have, and haven't been educated with, information to all the issues. They just say, but save the planet, well figure it out. And part of the reason is, the talking heads pushing it don't know the info or answers either.
But the rich will get richer by the money spent on the 'change' count on it.
Last edited:
I look forward to low-intelligence people shooting each other over places to plug their cars in because they planned poorly.
Man... that news cycle is going to be juicy.
Man... that news cycle is going to be juicy.
No matter what anyone says it boils down to sound. You can’t rev a Tesla. I love the innovation and tech packed into a Tesla, but it’s too damn quiet.
Gonna have a whole lot of people mowed down that didnt hear something coming out of a blind spot too... decap jobs from leaning out to look.
All those little kiddies thump thump thump that didn't hear a car in the street.
Tony the ambulance tiger says they're grrrrrreat!
I agree with you that in the grand scheme, this is not a battle of EVs vs ICE - sustainability reaches much further than that. Cities should be more pedestrian, bicycle, and rail friendly. Our current generation, transmission, and distribution infrastructure is not fit for the imminent electrical load increase. You're also correct saying that manufacturing batteries has harsh side effects.
I'm an electrical engineer and I work in distribution planning and protection for a utility - I am dealing with some of these problems in real-time. I am going to disagree with your statement that the manufacturing and support of EVs is more environmentally unfriendly than the ICE counterparts.
Look at this from an efficiency perspective (I'm going to generalize for the sake of keeping it simple) - Liquid fuel (mainly gas and diesel) is extracted, processed, and distributed on a huge scale all across the world to be sold at gas stations. The average ICE vehicle is about 30% efficient in converting the chemical potential energy stored in liquid fuel into usable kinetic energy; most is lost as heat waste. I am completely ignoring the additional inefficiencies that you must consider in distributing the gasoline to the end user.
It is more efficient to use fossil fuels (mainly natural gas) for large scale generation. These plants can have efficiencies in the 60%+ range, up to something like 80%. This is achieved through Combined Heat and Power, in which waste heat is collected and used for boiling water, driving a steam turbine, providing on-site heat, etc. Losses through transmission and distribution lines are typically minimal (<10%), and EVs themselves are usually in the 80%+ range, up to around 95%.
I know that natural gas is not the same as gasoline, the point is that there are better uses of fossil fuels. We only have a limited number of resources on this planet and I think they should be used as efficiently as possible.
Concerning the upfront pollution with battery production (mainly lithium, nickel and cobalt), that is surely an area that needs improvement. Like I said in a previous post though, alternate battery chemistries are currently being researched and developed, which I think is great news as far as sustainability is concerned. Another option is hydrogen fuel cells, which are basically EVs with hydrogen fuel. That eliminates the need for a huge battery, however they have their own set of challenges (such as sourcing the materials needed for the fuel cells - look up PEM fuel cells for more info on that), but are great solution as well.
Recycling batteries is also an area that needs improvement - the recycling process results in the loss of a lot of material, both valuable and invaluable. I had actually heard at one point that in certain scenarios, it is cheaper for some EV manufacturers to not even bother recycling old batteries because too little is gained vs the amount of energy put into the recycling process. They would rather stockpile the old batteries until they can be recycled more efficiently. I'm not sure if this is still the case.
Like I said, I'm not saying junk all ICE vehicles and go straight to EVs. ICEs have their place in the world right now, and we'd be in a lot better of a place if people didn't have the need to always buy new things instead of just sticking with what they've got.
There is no need for 17 million new cars and trucks to be sold in the US every single year. "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer cell", as Edward Abbey would say. I buy all of my cars used, and the only reason I stopped using my El Camino as my daily driver is because the transmission is turning into butter and it was getting too expensive to be driven 500+ miles per week.
The scope of this conversation is getting too big now - my main point is that EVs are here whether we like it or not and I think they are a welcomed change. I always think it is great to see the perspective of others so I'm glad we're able to debate things like this. You brought up a lot of good points, ck80
He used to be my hero. Of course he used to have all of his toes too. I guess he lost his mind somewhere along the way as well.
- Status
Similar threads
