LS Tesla swap

[LukeZ]

I'll tip my hat to you there sir, I went to URI for their bachelors in Ocean Engineering which.... I guess is their "multidisciplinary" do anything in the ocean or coastal zone kinda deal. The electrical side in the coursework for whatever reason just never was my favorite.

Haven't done any work in the field since the late 2000s.

We can disagree on which technology has more harm... it also depends on how far into the changes you lump in the effects among so much else. ICE gets a big leg up in that it's damage on the production/support infrastructure side has largely been done over the past century. But all that supporting stuff and changeover efforts do need to be considered. Just think of the transmission equipment alone.... it's pretty massive, from land use and rights of way, raw materials, it's generally accepted high tension lines can over a long period of time have adverse health effects, but we would need far far more. Then there is a what else could be done with the manpower and effort applied elsewhere... it all trickles down.

But again... true efficiency studies have to balance savings over the serviceable life of the upgrade vs what would be getting replaced, then account for startup efforts.

To, as we both keep doing, oversimplify in a generic sense, just make an abstract comparison. Let's pretend using strictly made up numbers, that ICE used 100 units at 40% efficiency, and the residual reuse/upgradability/repurposability (and I'm including machinery repurposing, facilities upgradability and reusability, distribution lifespan etc etc all manner of abstract stuff) is 70% for 1000 net units over say 40 years. That means you've got 40 units effective, and, you need to add 300 units supporting over time period.

Pretend a middle ground. Electric hits 65% net efficiency (75% generation minus 10% distribution/transmission/etc). So in 40 years you gain 25 units a year, or 1000 units saved. But if the whole reuse/repurpose/upgradability is only 30%, you need 700 net units supporting, a loss of 400 units to ICE. Then, if it takes 3000 units to build out the infrastructure to support it... you a net negative of 2200 units over the timespan, and if your footprint was bigger to begin with than ICE (pipelines are easier to build with arguably less upkeep than transmission lines, and, are pretty near 99.9% efficient) then you're even further in the hole.

That's a big net inefficiency, you'd need to go through hundreds of years worth of cycles before breaking even.

Then again, IMO, it's like debating will whale oil or coal oil be more efficient and worth being the energy of the future back in the day. The answer is none of the above. We just aren't there yet. So you need to sample a small time period and invest in research incubators.

Disclosure, of course those numbers are 100% made up BS. But those net calculations aren't happening. The rationale being pushed is just to drop emissions so on so forth, however, you're taking an efficiency argument approach. I don't think the power plant to rapid charger to ev model is going to be a 100 year technology like the refinery to station to ICE is/was.

Agreed. And it's only getting worse. One benefit to a simpler more streamlined ICE is its rebuildability and updatability. But electronics don't lend themselves to easily being updated. Cite to taking an IBM 8088/286/386/etc and updating it to a modern computer. Compare to the hated sbc to ls swap.

EVs will be more relatively short lived, one and done at a higher rate than ICEs for the most part. It's just not really efficient to try and wholesale upgrade an electrical device except by replacement.


I agree that its nice to, even if it's really superficially touching on issues, have discussion.. if nothing else my intent was to flag for other people types of things they might not have ever thought about... to open the eyes that there's more going on here than the idea electricity is clean, fuel burning bad, go ev!

That, and to try and point that those same 17 million+ vehicles and growing every year, shortsighted places are trying to make it so if they had their way they add 17 million evs per year coming as soon as this decade.... and the support structure just isn't there. And it is so far away in terms of cost and technology there is too much rushing into things.

And I didn't even get into the world of environmental impact statements and studies, lack of people competent to conduct all those studies at the scale needed to modernize nationwide, condemnation timelines and disputes.... it's MASSIVE. Man those things are job security for a lot of people I guess.

But look no further than this: we can't even handle letting people run a/c after work in the summer, but, the grid can support hundreds of millions of evs 10 to 15 years from now.... it'll get done in time.... umm.... don't think so. Not in our dysfunctional world where nobody wants any of it in their respective back yard either. There's no shortcut to building out the power generation needed in that time.

A whole different crisis is coming. Too many eggs are in the ev basket. I think the change the way its being implemented is not going to be a welcome one.

Glad to meet a fellow engineer - I had never heard of Ocean Engineering as a discrete discipline to be studied in undergrad, sounds pretty cool though.

This probably isn't apparent to the general public but the grid is making new strides that it hasn't seen in the last 60 years. Have you heard of Distributed Energy Resources? The classical grid model is a 1 line diagram - a generator, which feeds transmission lines, which feed a substation, which feed distribution lines, which feed consumers. The way the grid is heading is decentralization - think of many small "generators" at various points in the grid.

One major issue that we face is called the duck curve - you can research it yourself but basically we have 2 main load peaks during the day. One in the morning when people wake up and one in the evening when people get home from work. The challenge in the past has been getting generation that can follow load, i.e. generators that can easily be ramped up and down. Nuclear is not good at this - it is best suited providing generation for base load. Natural gas plants can easily be ramped up and down, which is why they have been so popular in recent history.

An alternate solution to following the load is flattening the load. What if there was no duck curve? What if load throughout the day was generally flat? One way that this can be achieved is through Load Control, which already exists. Does your utility send out notifications on certain days asking you, as a consumer, to use less electric for a few hours in the evenings? Some utilities call it Beat the Peak, its a common program.

Most people charge their EVs when they get home in the evenings. Presently, this only makes the duck curve worse. How can we solve this? By having everyone not charge at the same time. This means having EV charging infrastructure everywhere - homes, business, etc. The average commute in the US is 32 miles round trip - this amount of range can be regained in an EV with just over an hour of level 2 charging (which make up 99% of home and business chargers).

One other up and coming technology is V2G, or Vehicle to Grid. These cars have massive batteries, so why not make use of them in conjunction with DERs? When load in certain areas of a distribution system gets to be high, EVs can discharge their batteries to accommodate load.

I know that a lot of new infrastructure will need to be put in place to make this happen. That's the name of the game. I understand that different areas of the country have different experiences with the grid. Where I am at, we are a part of the PJM Interconnection (DE, PA, NJ, VA, WV, MD, OH) and I feel that the gird haas been pretty reliable thus far.

The grid needs to be upgraded, for sure. I feel that most people believe it isn't happening, but progress is actually beginning to accelerate greater than it ever has in the past. It's just a matter of time.

Regardless of what most people think on this forum, I still believe that EVs (and alternative fuels in general) are here to stay and will be staple in transportation.
ck80, you've made me consider a lot of things from your perspective that I hadn't necessarily given a lot of thought to in the past so I appreciate that.

 

[LukeZ]

Nice to have an unbiased review, from someone who actually knows something.

For me, there's no EV hate. Early on I actually got very enthused for a while. Then I started looking a little closer and started to feel like things were being oversold. At that point you get dubious. And out here, with the wildfire situation and the PG&E scandals, there's a lot to get dubious about. At this point I see wishful thinking on one end and opportunism on the other. So call me cynical.

For example, I doubt your juice bill will be 1/4 for very long if very many other people are plugging in and the grid needs major expansion to keep up with demand -- assuming that can even happen. I just haven't seen the numbers.

Oh, and I forgot. Who wants to remember? We have ancient history with electric supply here. I live within biking distance of Shasta Dam, and once upon a time our little municipal utility had very low rates. Then the state compelled the utility to pay grid rates and their rates multiplied, due to the distance to Grand Coulee and consumption in Los Angeles. Then we had the big Power Crisis, due to gross mismanagement by the state, and all rates multiplied, which led to the gubernatorial recall that put The Terminator in office. It was promised that rates would come back down. Of course they haven't.

So I guess instinctively I just wonder what kind of idiot would willingly become more dependent on electric.

People complain about oil companies, I know. But gas prices are actually a bargain, compared to the late 1950s.

So, is it out of the frying pan, into the fire?

On your comment about becoming more dependent on electric - I'm assuming you do not follow energy developments too closely, which is fine because most people do not either.

I am actually part of a working group between my utility and 10 others that develop new methods of strategic electrification. If your utility has any programs or grants for converting diesel generators for farm irrigation to electric for free (or for some grant money), or maybe converting appliances in your house form gas to electric, or maybe installing an EV charger in your house at no cost, well those are the types of programs that we decide on.

The goal is to be as dependent on electric as possible. That probably scares some people who have bad experiences with reliability and service, but strides are now being made to have the grid be as resilient as possible. Just a matter of time (and money haha)

Your views are valid, I'm just telling you my side as someone who works in the industry.

 

[LukeZ]

We need to get back to talking about putting turbos on LS motors; when I read liberal politics and 'Save the World' sustainability stuff on a hot rod forum, it makes me want to puke...

I didn't think we were talking about politics, the topic of EVs and their future came up so that's what the conversation evolved into. I haven't mentioned politics once

Also, if this is a hot rod forum, then what's your car doing here bud?

 

[pagrunt]

We need to get back to talking about putting turbos on LS motors; when I read liberal politics and 'Save the World' sustainability stuff on a hot rod forum, it makes me want to puke...

OK back to our regularly scheculed love/hate of the LS with radom usless memes

 

[motorheadmike]

I didn't think we were talking about politics, the topic of EVs and their future came up so that's what the conversation evolved into. I haven't mentioned politics once

Also, if this is a hot rod forum, then what's your car doing here bud?

Dude. Chill. Put down the keyboard and go build something. He's probably the most inspirational figure we've had on here in a hot minute - his efforts to learn and do are commendable.

We get it, EVs have staying power. It's mostly a highly manipulated self-fulfilling prophecy - so we'll adapt and move on.

But, with 2500+ hp of visceral driving experiences in my garage and driveway I want to enjoy it while I can. Maybe one day I'll have no other option... or maybe not.

 

[08Malibu]

Look what I happen to be working on today. If this interior doesn’t inspire you for spirited driving, then you’re nuts.

 

[ck80]

Glad to meet a fellow engineer - I had never heard of Ocean Engineering as a discrete discipline to be studied in undergrad, sounds pretty cool though.

This probably isn't apparent to the general public but the grid is making new strides that it hasn't seen in the last 60 years. Have you heard of Distributed Energy Resources? The classical grid model is a 1 line diagram - a generator, which feeds transmission lines, which feed a substation, which feed distribution lines, which feed consumers. The way the grid is heading is decentralization - think of many small "generators" at various points in the grid.

One major issue that we face is called the duck curve - you can research it yourself but basically we have 2 main load peaks during the day. One in the morning when people wake up and one in the evening when people get home from work. The challenge in the past has been getting generation that can follow load, i.e. generators that can easily be ramped up and down. Nuclear is not good at this - it is best suited providing generation for base load. Natural gas plants can easily be ramped up and down, which is why they have been so popular in recent history.

An alternate solution to following the load is flattening the load. What if there was no duck curve? What if load throughout the day was generally flat? One way that this can be achieved is through Load Control, which already exists. Does your utility send out notifications on certain days asking you, as a consumer, to use less electric for a few hours in the evenings? Some utilities call it Beat the Peak, its a common program.

Most people charge their EVs when they get home in the evenings. Presently, this only makes the duck curve worse. How can we solve this? By having everyone not charge at the same time. This means having EV charging infrastructure everywhere - homes, business, etc. The average commute in the US is 32 miles round trip - this amount of range can be regained in an EV with just over an hour of level 2 charging (which make up 99% of home and business chargers).

One other up and coming technology is V2G, or Vehicle to Grid. These cars have massive batteries, so why not make use of them in conjunction with DERs? When load in certain areas of a distribution system gets to be high, EVs can discharge their batteries to accommodate load.

I know that a lot of new infrastructure will need to be put in place to make this happen. That's the name of the game. I understand that different areas of the country have different experiences with the grid. Where I am at, we are a part of the PJM Interconnection (DE, PA, NJ, VA, WV, MD, OH) and I feel that the gird haas been pretty reliable thus far.

The grid needs to be upgraded, for sure. I feel that most people believe it isn't happening, but progress is actually beginning to accelerate greater than it ever has in the past. It's just a matter of time.

Regardless of what most people think on this forum, I still believe that EVs (and alternative fuels in general) are here to stay and will be staple in transportation.
ck80, you've made me consider a lot of things from your perspective that I hadn't necessarily given a lot of thought to in the past so I appreciate that.

URIs status starting as a land grant then becoming a sea grant college influenced that... they also were one of only a handful to offer a marine affairs undergrad program. It's an interesting program for sure, although, we didn't have many enrollees. I first matriculated as a chem egr and shifted over, partly because I was enjoying so many different egr fields.

At one of our properties we had a co-op for the electric utilities which was actually about the best I've ever seen or heard of.

For only covering about 20,000 homes and buying most of their power from GA Power's coal plants they were very forward thinking and actually generated an amount of their own power.

A couple cool things they did was hold the effect of an IPO for their customers from time to time. You would, if desired, sign up to buy $50 "units" in solar fields they wanted to build. For each unit you owned actually got a credit each month off your electric bill for as long as you were a customer that reflected the power generation pro-rata of your shares from the field each month. Then, if you moved away, you got a refund or offset in your final bill of the same $50 for each unit you bought.

It allowed the utility to become more self sufficient at zero cost, and on the backside, as people moved the utility then 'owned' the panels and sold that electric for value instead of giving the consumer the credits.

I feel like it must've been 6 or 10 years ago now where the tesla power wall was supposed to be a thing... as well as their solar generating roof tiles in very eye pleasing designs. If more time and effort was put into THAT technology more leaps and bounds would be made, but, it hasn't seen the effort.

I remember reading a trade article in the mid-teens... had to be around 2013, 2015, something like that. Here's the crux of what it got to. Transmission losses in dense populated areas were greater than those in rural areas..aggregated over the year, the energy units lost were greater than the energy units content in all the fuel burned in automotive applications combined in that same year.

As a whole, although publicly regulated most power generation is for profit. That explains their resistance in being against homeowner power generation, and not wanting private parties to have reverse flow meters or penalizing them with fees built in instrrat of straight even flow credits - part accounted for by, as you said, the base load vs ramping issue and that most solar production happens during periods of already excess capacity or low demand.

Easiest answer that pops into my head is staggered ev charging, where there is a system assigned by the utility provider. With smart meters these days it wouldn't be the hardest concept to separately meter ev charging, and, you have a remove activation from the power company staggered through the middle of the night. Companies can already turn on/off service through some smart meters, so sending staggered signals through the night isn't a huge challenge. To the owner, you still plug in at night and wake up in the morning fully charged. Not as controversial as discharging the private property batteries for electric company profit while degrading the cells either.

 

[ck80]

Look what I happen to be working on today. If this interior doesn’t inspire you for spirited driving, then you’re nuts.

I'm nuts.

Interior looks spartan and cheap. The screen is huge and looks like an afterthought, isn't seamlessly integrated to be part of the dash structure.

Sorry, not a fan. But then again, I never was a big fan of those pop out of the dash screens in aftermarket radios either.

 

[LukeZ]

Dude. Chill. Put down the keyboard and go build something. He's probably the most inspirational figure we've had on here in a hot minute - his efforts to learn and do are commendable.

We get it, EVs have staying power. It's mostly a highly manipulated self-fulfilling prophecy - so we'll adapt and move on.

But, with 2500+ hp of visceral driving experiences in my garage and driveway I want to enjoy it while I can. Maybe one day I'll have no other option... or maybe not.

I was just being funny brother - see when me and my buddies get together with our cars, talking sh*t is part of the fun. Guess it’s different where you’re from.

Kudos to you on the 2500+hp worth of toys you have, I bet you have some fun with those things. On an unrelated note, when’s the next meeting for the Compensation Club?
😉
All in good fun

 

[motorheadmike]

I love the ignore function.