$4 gas & your g-body

[Vern]

Karter & Nightmare, You guys don't seem to get it. This thread is not about gas mileage OR performance its about achieving a reasonable combination of BOTH, ideally affordably at that. Is there some reason that offends you guys? No one said you should build your ride to achieve both. Is there any reason you don't want anyone else to? I'm good with someone being the devil's advocate but.. TonySS shares his plan / idea Karter shoots it down COST. I don't know if a new gen engine can be acquired / swapped economically, yet.. at least not without fabrication & problem solving but I would like to know more about it. And any other ideas that might achieve both, like I suggested maybe a 13.5 or better ET AND 15 mpg or better.

"IF I was building a fuel efficient gbody I'd probably consider the 4cyl from an 82 Camaro behind and overdrive transmission and 2.29s." says Karter. Did I somehow piss in your wheaties or step on your toe? There is no performance in that setup and you know it. I don't think I was being an arse in posting this thread or in responding to your first post. I thought you wanted to contribute to the thread and it now seems as though you only want to stop it or throw it off track.

If you start a thread about what traction or 60 foot can be achieved with X drag radial I am not going to come on your thread and say no one needs that kind of traction and they are too expensive everyone should buy Z 100,000 mile radials at Joe's swap meet like I did. Look I am not mad at you guys I just hope that if you decide to post on this thread its something that is meant to contribute to the subject matter of the thread. I don't see why anyone would not want someone else to learn about achieving both performance and mileage.

 

[Tony_SS]

The cost is actually really reasonable. You can find a complete turnkey 5.3 LS for around $800 if you shop around. The conversions are catching on and there are motor mount/trans mount kits for around $500 which make it a bolt it deal.

BRP kits:
http://www.brphotrods.com/monte%20carlo ... 20kit.html

Gen III engines are pretty fuel effecient and they make power so easy. Alot of folks have already done the LSx swap in their g-bodies over at LS1tech.

 

[Vern]

Tony, Thanks for the link and the $800 estimate average for the turnkey 5.3. Do the 5.7s get a lot more? I would like to someday do a GP 2+2 with a 6.2 and the new Eaton supercharger like what is in the new Superbird Vette. Pipedream probably. I think the $289/249 with swap kit is very reasonable for the oil pan. But I think $479 for gbody kit is salty. $728 is a lot for just the swap but when somebody comes to market with a similar kit for say $400 to 500 and as more LS motors hit the salvage yards I am sure we will see more LS motored gbody swaps.

PS I understand their asking price as I am sure they have lots of R&D time that they would like to recoup.

 

[Coveted]

Karter & Nightmare, You guys don't seem to get it. This thread is not about gas mileage OR performance its about achieving a reasonable combination of BOTH, ideally affordably at that. Is there some reason that offends you guys? No one said you should build your ride to ahieve both. Is there any reason you don't want anyone else to? I'm good with someone being the devil's advocate but.. TonySS shares his plan / idea Karter shoots it down COST. I don't know if a new gen engine can be acquired / swapped economically, yet.. at least not without fabrication & problem solving but I would like to know more about it. And any other ideas that might achieve both, like I suggested maybe a 13.5 or better ET AND 15 mpg or better.

"IF I was building a fuel efficient gbody I'd probably consider the 4cyl from an 82 Camaro behind and overdrive transmission and 2.29s." says Karter. Did I somehow piss in your wheaties or step on your toe? There is no performance in that setup and you know it. I don't think I was being an arse in posting this thread or in responding to your first post. I thought you wanted to contribute to the thread and it now seems as though you only want to stop it or throw it off track.

If you start a thread about what traction or 60 foot can be achieved with X drag radial I am not going to come on your thread and say no one needs that kind of traction and they are too expensive everyone should buy Z 100,000 mile radials at Joe's swap meet like I did. Look I am not mad at you guys I just hope that if you decide to post on this thread its something that is meant to contribute to the subject matter of the thread. I don't see why anyone would not want someone else to learn about achieving both performance and mileage.

We werent bashing that you want more fuel mileage.
Performence and good on gas dont go together.
If you want a 3400lb car that gets 20+ mpg, buy a 4th gen ls1 car.

I didn't shoot down anyones Idea, or tell them they were wrong once, you should either A) Read more, or B) careless

as far as no performence to be had out of that 4cyl.
the 1982 camaro 4cyl made 130hp
Most 305s make 140hp if they are lucky.
So your only option is to take the hit on the gas and build a gen1 350, or take the hit in the wallet and build an ls1 gbody.

BTW a Stock LS1 in an fbody which weighs about the same as a gbody is a 14 second car, so your not going 13.5 without mods.

Ofcourse, you could always strip the car out as much as possible, less weight makes a car better on fuel.
Run it on very narrow tires with good airpressure will also save fuel.
Then buy a wide set for the back of the car for the drag strip, LEss weight will also make you faster in the 1/4 mile.

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

I already get pretty much 15+mpg city and the car on paper runs mid 13's ( I was hoping to verify the paper when it was driveable again, but that is postponed now). The problem is, even at that it is still too expensive to run it. I don't mean the kind of expensive that it takes from my entertainment budget, I mean the kind that takes from paying the electricity and buying food. The price of oil has driven business away where I work, and I just got cut to 20 hours a week!!! I am now going to try to find another job to either supplement it, or replace it. I don't know what I am going to do now. I was hoping to finish my degree before changing jobs, but even a minimal AA is at least January of 2009 away for me. I can't finish my degree with a normal job, which is why I am working nights delivering pizza. My truck also needs 4 new tires, which I can't afford, a new motor mount, which I can't afford, and the turn signal switch is acting up, but I can't even afford gas to go pull one from the junkyard. Sorry for the rant, but I am freaking out right now since my boss called me to tell me not to come to work tonight. My mortgage and insurance are already late, and I am hoping I will be able to pay them before anything else goes wrong.

Oh, and the 4 cyl 2.5 Camaros made 90 hp, not 130. The 2.8 V6 made around 130. Most LG4 305's made 150hp, while the TBI L03 305 made 170. The L69 305 made 190hp in the Camaro (180 in the MCSS due to the air cleaner design). I won't get into the TPI engines here, as there were a few variations I don't recall.

 

[Coveted]

Yeah the 4cyl made 132 fpt, I had them confused, good catch.
Tho the 305 numbers you posted are a little off.

The z28 with a 305 and twin TBI made only 145hp.

 

[Tony_SS]

Tony, Thanks for the link and the $800 estimate average for the turnkey 5.3. Do the 5.7s get a lot more? I would like to someday do a GP 2+2 with a 6.2 and the new Eaton supercharger like what is in the new Superbird Vette. Pipedream probably. I think the $289/249 with swap kit is very reasonable for the oil pan. But I think $479 for gbody kit is salty. $728 is a lot for just the swap but when somebody comes to market with a similar kit for say $400 to 500 and as more LS motors hit the salvage yards I am sure we will see more LS motored gbody swaps.

PS I understand their asking price as I am sure they have lots of R&D time that they would like to recoup.

The yards are pretty full of 4.8, 5.3 and some 6.0's. There are some all aluminum 5.3's but more 6.0's (the LQ4 maybe??). These are the LS engines that are in all the Tahoes and Silverados.. I'm not sure exactly on the years. But having owned a 5.3 and a 6.0 in the past, theres no way I spend $1500 building a Gen 1.

Im sure the price does include the R&D but I think its a fair one. Headers are another issue, but BRP is working that out as well.

My thinking is why invest in old, inefficient tech, only to get a loud, leaky gas hog that'll last 100k if youre lucky.

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

Yeah the 4cyl made 132 fpt, I had them confused, good catch.
Tho the 305 numbers you posted are a little off.

The z28 with a 305 and twin TBI made only 145hp.

Yes, but that's not the TBI 305 I was talking about. The LO3 was a roller cam 87+ 305, the Cease-Fire Injection I believe was only 82-83 or 84.

As to why build a GEN I, it's because it is a bolt in using cheap junkyard parts, and the used aftermarket parts market is also very cheap. There is no stock parts solution that will allow a gen 3 to go into a G body. Plus, the ignition system is expensive to convert to run with a carb, as is the intake. Running EFI is still not any cheaper as it would require a different fuel system, wiring, and a hacked ECU or aftermarket solution. Even the Megasquirt is not that cheap as it would probably run around $300-400 when all is said and done. By the time you are done, the conversion process alone would cost you the better part of $2,000, plus the engine. You gotta remember that you will need custom mounts, oil pan mods and you need to move a mounting ear on the transmission. Don't get me wrong, I love the Gen III engines. I just think the price is a bit hard to swallow for some of us.

 

[Vern]

Just Karter, 85 Cutlass Broham gets it as well as pretty much everyone else that has posted. He lists his setup includeing a gen 1 350 chevy, says even though he does not have his lock up coverter working it still gets 15mpg and he suspects it will run a mid 13.

I never said I want more mileage, as you can see mine perform well and get good mileage. "Performance and good on gas don't go together" Bingo in there lies the challenge and the purpose for this thread. If you can do both in a gbody for reasonable money tell us how. And no we don't need a 4th gen LS1 car to accomplish these goals as we have already posted some cars / combos that have met or exceeded the goals. No I don't need to re-read your posts or care less. "So your only choice is to take a hit on gas and build a gen 1 350, or take a hit in the wallet and build an LS1 gbody." I think we have clearly proven that to be false.

The big difference between the 4cyl and the 305 was torque not horspower regardless are you planning on getting that 4 cylinder to propel the gbody to a mid thirteen and for reasonable money if so post how you think it could be done. Nobody ever said you could not use aftermarket parts to meet the goals be it through more power more efficiency or less weight.

85Cut Bro, Good points about the fuel system, Carb /intake convertion and or ECU / aftermarket solution although I hope & suspect TonySS will show us a relatively simple solution where it can be done for less than $2,000 plus motor.

 

[Tony_SS]

That kit IS the mounts and trans mount so it is a bolt in. If you get a turn key engine with all the accessories, grab the harness with it and the injection system is already setup. I did forget about the gas tank sending unit needed, but they can be made to run carbs rather easily actually.

The mileage and performance would be worth every dollar spent.

Heh.. don't rely on me Vern.. I'm not an LSx expert, but here is someone who might be:
http://www.fquick.com/G-Body

Oh yeah, jerrycad on here is in the process of an LSx swap into an 81 Monte, maybe he can chime in on what his plans are.