The impending Big Auto / Oil implosion explained (2018)

Status
Not open for further replies.
There is nothing new about the electric car.

Back in the early 1900's they were all over of all places New York City

Almost 40% of cars were electric

Ever hear about them............probably not.

in 1900 they got 83 miles out of one charge.

What did they achieve in over 100 years with all this fancy tech?

Barely doubling it????
 
I have no love or hate for electric vehicles at this point. They make sense in a lot of situations. Where is the highest concentration of people? Cities and suburbs. Low speed short trippers are good candidates for electric. Besides, the urban areas will be first to go autonomous anyway. Electric cars makes that leap easily.

I think there's also some NIMBY at play too. If the coal plant is 75 miles away and my perfectly green charging station is here. Am I still green? Not really, but my friends think I am and I still get the tax credit.
Make no mistake, the industry is moving this direction. The tech in the cars will continue to improve pretty rapidly. It's the infrastructure that needs to play catch-up.

We also need to recognize that we're the minority. We drive older cars for the sensory and emotional experience. I think most people just want to get where they're going. It's not a viable option for me right now as I live in a rural area and frequently drive 500-1000 miles a day for work.
 
I can tell you here in NYC and Long Island one of the highest populated places in the USA.

They are no where near ready to go electric.

The grid cant handle it at all.

We have black outs and brown outs all spring / summer long in certain areas.

The grid is as old as electric is.

Remember August 14–28, 2003 ?

The Northeast blackout of 2003 all because of a software "bug"

I am not against the electric car either

They are fast a sh@t, but reality wise they are just not practical.

If people didnt spread so many save the earth lies about them maybe I would take them more seriously
 
My experience with electric spans 30 yrs. I can tell you that everyone pats themselves on the back for buying it at first. Thinking they're doing their part to save the planet.

Then after a couple years as the batteries slowly start to lose their ability to take/hold a charge, they start crying about the replacement cost that is coming down the road.

The batteries are only good for so many "cycles". 1 charge and use the following day is 2 cycles. If you go to the mall and plug it in, 1 more. What they call "opportunity charging" is great except repeatedly doing that is eating up cycles. I've seen applications were they use up 6 in a day. Now your battery that was supposed to last 5-6 yrs has given up in 3. All the money you saved in fuel is now needed for a new battery. I hope it's not back-ordered or now you have no car. Where's the rental place? Oh crap, they're out of cars?

I still believe the solution is hybrid. Partial electric that delivers great mileage without the problems that are sure to come with an abundance of fully electric dead on the roads cause they were sure they could make it to the charging station which will certainly have a waiting period when it becomes more mainstream.

Many analysts believe we are no where ready for electric vehicles as the norm. In some cases, absolutely it will fit your needs but for most, people are spoiled and generally lazy. A guy at work has a BMW electric thing. It's ugly as sh*t and he paid $60K for it. Costs him $30/month to charge it at home. He lives 10 mins away.

I'll keep putting gas in my Audi and trying to be cool.
 
Brand new sbc with warranty is 1600 from summit jegs or any other place

That's nice, but I didn't put the cheapest, lamest, bottom shelf small block in my car. How much is a roller cam big block with fully forged internals?

Your Leaf is 6 years old and needs a new "engine" already

No, it doesn't need a new "engine." Let's at least be honest here. My car's motor is in perfect shape--it still runs and accelerates just like new, and it is every bit as smooth, quiet, and efficient as day one, also. If anything, you could draw a parallel and say it needs a new gas tank... except, it doesn't. Even though the battery only holds about 80% of its original charge, this doesn't mean it "needs" to be replaced. The car still travels 80% of the distance that it did when it was new, which for me is usually 75-80 miles per full charge. This car was never about long-distance interstate travel, so the effect is actually very minimal. I certainly don't lose any sleep at night over it.

Nissan even admits their batterys are good for aprrox 5 year before they loose 20% of their capacity

My car is 7 years old and has 60k on it, and that's exactly where I am. Some Leaf batteries degrade faster, some degrade slower, depending on the climate where they are used and how often they are quick charged. Nissan's poor choice in engineering results in low resale value, which worked out in my favor so I'm not complaining. 🙂

Speaking of buying a used EV, I bought this car purely as an experiment. I intentionally chose a car which had already suffered the majority of its depreciation. My plan is to own and drive it for only one full year. If I decide EV life is for me, I will sell the car (for nearly the same amount I paid for it) and replace it with a newer (but still used) EV that has greater range. <Indeed, I wanted to buy a Bolt instead of a Leaf but they weren't coming off lease in mass yet, so their prices were higher than I wanted to pay.> OTOH, if I don't want to continue living my EV ways then I can dump the car and go back to spending hundreds more dollars on gasoline, oil changes, etc every month.

Electric cars wont work for me since I do 500 plus miles a day and upwards of 50k miles year.

And that's fine. Clearly, you are one of the exceptional folks for whom an EV may not be entirely practical. No problem.

BTW, please don't misunderstand me. I am not here to take away your gas-powered cars, and I am not out to force anybody to switch to an EV. Some folks have already made up their mind, and no amount of facts shoved in their faces will convince them that EVs are a viable option. That's fine. But I know a number of people will read this thread who don't know all the facts about EVs, what they are like to live with, etc. I think those folks deserve to see the other side of the argument. Since I have decided to jump in with both feet and try out the EV lifestyle, I am happy to share my experience and findings with others. From there, the fence-sitters can make up their own minds and react as they choose.

Back to the thread:

in 1900 they got 83 miles out of one charge.

What did they achieve in over 100 years with all this fancy tech?

For starters, in 1900 we didn't have 80 MPH interstate highways crisscrossing the nation. We also didn't have cars with stereo systems, air conditioning, crumple zones and airbags, or any number of other things that add weight to a vehicle.

If the coal plant is 75 miles away and my perfectly green charging station is here. Am I still green? Not really, but my friends think I am and I still get the tax credit.

Thank you for bringing this up--I had forgotten to comment on it.

Another favorite argument of every anti-EV person is coal. "Your electricity all comes from coal, so your car is no cleaner than my gas burner!" This is incorrect, for multiple reasons. First, electric motors are simply more efficient than gasoline engines at turning energy into forward motion. Modern internal combustion engines are only 17-21% efficient. In other words, for all the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline, your car's engine turns only 17-21% of it into propulsion; the rest of that energy is lost as wasted heat, or to friction, etc. By comparison, an electric car converts about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. (source) This means an electric car is approximately three times more efficient than a comparable gasoline-powered car. That disparity suggests that even if all my Leaf's power came from a coal plant, I would be polluting less than if the car ran on gasoline.

But, that's a pointless idea to consider. Why? Because, as a nation, we are relying on coal less each year for our electricity. For the last 20 years, coal has been on a decline as a source of electricity in this country. Back in 1999, coal provided 50% of our power. In 2009, coal had dropped to providing only 44% of our electric power. At that point, the rate of decline began to fall steeply; for year 2018, coal only provided 27% of our national power. (source) Clean sources of energy are taking over, and each year they produce more and more of our power.

So while my Leaf is already significantly clean from an emissions standpoint, it will continue to get even cleaner every year it is on the road. Meanwhile, my gas-powered cars are forever doomed to continue polluting the planet. Next year, five years from now, ten years from now--every gallon of gas they burn in the future will pollute just as much then as the gallon of gas they burn today.

Make no mistake, the industry is moving this direction. The tech in the cars will continue to improve pretty rapidly.

Exactly. There's an old saying along the line of, the person who says something is impossible is typically interrupted by someone who is doing it. I love my gas-powered cars at least as much as anyone else on this forum. Nevertheless, the revolution is coming. The detractors can deny it all they want; I just hope they step aside so as to not get run over when it arrives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dayzedandkonfuzed
Green energy is a problem for EVs. The batteries in EVs need nice, clean, stable, and consistent electricity. The electricity from green sources is dirty and unstable, which damages EV batteries, and can even cause them to combust. Sadly green energy is not yet up to the task of recrarging EVs in mass.
 
Last edited:
That's nice, but I didn't put the cheapest, lamest, bottom shelf small block in my car. How much is a roller cam big block with fully forged internals?



No, it doesn't need a new "engine." Let's at least be honest here. My car's motor is in perfect shape--it still runs and accelerates just like new, and it is every bit as smooth, quiet, and efficient as day one, also. If anything, you could draw a parallel and say it needs a new gas tank... except, it doesn't. Even though the battery only holds about 80% of its original charge, this doesn't mean it "needs" to be replaced. The car still travels 80% of the distance that it did when it was new, which for me is usually 75-80 miles per full charge. This car was never about long-distance interstate travel, so the effect is actually very minimal. I certainly don't lose any sleep at night over it.



My car is 7 years old and has 60k on it, and that's exactly where I am. Some Leaf batteries degrade faster, some degrade slower, depending on the climate where they are used and how often they are quick charged. Nissan's poor choice in engineering results in low resale value, which worked out in my favor so I'm not complaining. 🙂

Speaking of buying a used EV, I bought this car purely as an experiment. I intentionally chose a car which had already suffered the majority of its depreciation. My plan is to own and drive it for only one full year. If I decide EV life is for me, I will sell the car (for nearly the same amount I paid for it) and replace it with a newer (but still used) EV that has greater range. <Indeed, I wanted to buy a Bolt instead of a Leaf but they weren't coming off lease in mass yet, so their prices were higher than I wanted to pay.> OTOH, if I don't want to continue living my EV ways then I can dump the car and go back to spending hundreds more dollars on gasoline, oil changes, etc every month.



And that's fine. Clearly, you are one of the exceptional folks for whom an EV may not be entirely practical. No problem.

BTW, please don't misunderstand me. I am not here to take away your gas-powered cars, and I am not out to force anybody to switch to an EV. Some folks have already made up their mind, and no amount of facts shoved in their faces will convince them that EVs are a viable option. That's fine. But I know a number of people will read this thread who don't know all the facts about EVs, what they are like to live with, etc. I think those folks deserve to see the other side of the argument. Since I have decided to jump in with both feet and try out the EV lifestyle, I am happy to share my experience and findings with others. From there, the fence-sitters can make up their own minds and react as they choose.

Back to the thread:



For starters, in 1900 we didn't have 80 MPH interstate highways crisscrossing the nation. We also didn't have cars with stereo systems, air conditioning, crumple zones and airbags, or any number of other things that add weight to a vehicle.



Thank you for bringing this up--I had forgotten to comment on it.

Another favorite argument of every anti-EV person is coal. "Your electricity all comes from coal, so your car is no cleaner than my gas burner!" This is incorrect, for multiple reasons. First, electric motors are simply more efficient than gasoline engines at turning energy into forward motion. Modern internal combustion engines are only 17-21% efficient. In other words, for all the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline, your car's engine turns only 17-21% of it into propulsion; the rest of that energy is lost as wasted heat, or to friction, etc. By comparison, an electric car converts about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. (source) This means an electric car is approximately three times more efficient than a comparable gasoline-powered car. That disparity suggests that even if all my Leaf's power came from a coal plant, I would be polluting less than if the car ran on gasoline.

But, that's a pointless idea to consider. Why? Because, as a nation, we are relying on coal less each year for our electricity. For the last 20 years, coal has been on a decline as a source of electricity in this country. Back in 1999, coal provided 50% of our power. In 2009, coal had dropped to providing only 44% of our electric power. At that point, the rate of decline began to fall steeply; for year 2018, coal only provided 27% of our national power. (source) Clean sources of energy are taking over, and each year they produce more and more of our power.

So while my Leaf is already significantly clean from an emissions standpoint, it will continue to get even cleaner every year it is on the road. Meanwhile, my gas-powered cars are forever doomed to continue polluting the planet. Next year, five years from now, ten years from now--every gallon of gas they burn in the future will pollute just as much then as the gallon of gas they burn today.



Exactly. There's an old saying along the line of, the person who says something is impossible is typically interrupted by someone who is doing it. I love my gas-powered cars at least as much as anyone else on this forum. Nevertheless, the revolution is coming. The detractors can deny it all they want; I just hope they step aside so as to not get run over when it arrives.
Your efficency statement for electric is flawed.

The ICE converts raw energy source (gas) it power at the wheels. You have that right.

However, your electric argument you jump in near the end, and that's a huge error.

With electric you need to burn a raw fuel source (efficiency lost in capture of converted heat or kinetic energy), then loss at the turbine, loss in the transformer stepping up to high voltage, loss during transmission, loss during step down at transfer station, loss during transmission to end user, loss during final transformer before home/outlet.

There's a great deal of inefficiency lost just getting that energy to the electric motor you discount by not including, yet charge against the ICE.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rktpwrd
Your efficency statement for electric is flawed.

The ICE converts raw energy source (gas) it power at the wheels. You have that right.

However, your electric argument you jump in near the end, and that's a huge error.

With electric you need to burn a raw fuel source (efficiency lost in capture of converted heat or kinetic energy), then loss at the turbine, loss in the transformer stepping up to high voltage, loss during transmission, loss during step down at transfer station, loss during transmission to end user, loss during final transformer before home/outlet.

There's a great deal of inefficiency lost just getting that energy to the electric motor you discount by not including, yet charge against the ICE.

That's a good point

But what about all the energy used to get that crude out of the ground to gasoline at a station?

I like where this thread is going, really makes you think about all the other factors involved on both sides of the argument.
 
That's a good point

But what about all the energy used to get that crude out of the ground to gasoline at a station?

I like where this thread is going, really makes you think about all the other factors involved on both sides of the argument.
Again, what about getting either the nuclear fuel mined, or the oil/coal out, or all the materials to build the solar/wind power, or constructing power plant facilities? It all applies to electric.

I also like to point out that "green" energy has unknown and unresearched impacts that nobody talks about in debates.

What is weather driven by? Basically, it all comes down to moving air. Clouds/rain come from moist humid air rising into colder air, which has a lower moisture capacity, leading to condensation and precipitation. Wind. Moving air masses.

Solar energy captured by panels doesn't soak into the ground, or, get reflected into the sky. That means 1) it doesn't heat air mass in the day as its reflected up, and 2) doesn't radiate from the ground, which was heated less as it absored less, at night.

Wind farms slow moving air masses and reduce the movement of air. On the ocean the loss of wind energy affects water currents.

Captured energy, as scale increases, could have unknown and potentially detrimental impacts not studied or thought about in the least.

Talk about climate change impacts, harvesting that energy is literally changing climate directly. As size/scale and number/types of projects used goes up, well, I think you'll see greater and greater impacts of unknown type.

Electric cars are different tools, and can be useful in their own way. BUT by the time you factor everything in, including destructive rare earth mining, or the fact that rare earth minerals are, by nature, low distribution and limited supply, it's not the environmental godsend the indoctrinated masses make them out to be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

GBodyForum is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com. Amazon, the Amazon logo, AmazonSupply, and the AmazonSupply logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.

Please support GBodyForum Sponsors

Classic Truck Consoles Dixie Restoration Depot UMI Performance

Contact [email protected] for info on becoming a sponsor