Torque! Rocket power vs LS power

[olds307 and 403]

From Cutlassefi(Mark Remmel) on the new Edelbrock heads
They’ll be worth the wait guys, especially the small block one.
if any of you watch Engine Masters, you’ll see they have a 351 Windsor as one of their mules. 9.5:1, 232/238 Hyd roller and AFR Heads. It makes in the 430-440 range with an RPM, 750 and open headers.
I’m here to tell you you’ll be able to do just about the same with these heads. Patience gentlemen, patience.

 

[ck1984]

my 84 cutlass had an anemic 305 already swapped into it. it ran fairly decent after a 10 min warmup but was never a performer, but its not surprising considering i probly have a 2.14 rear gear possibly 2.56.
I found an 2002 5.3 LS complete with 220,000km, for $450 cdn and swapped it in, mated to stock Th350.
So now it has more than double the Hp and fair bit more TQ than that 305, its STILL not tire frier due to that rear gear BUT now it runs smooth and idles nicely in about 10 sec vs 10 minutes before.
If i can find a set of 3.42 gears to stick in there it will be much faster!

 

[64nailhead]

I must present you with quite the conundrum of emotions then. 😉

Actually no. I don’t believe you to be the usual type in the ‘Hellcat owners club’.

I’m not someone discriminates
Against much of anything other than Cowboy fans and Hellcat owners. The usual Hellcat owner(at least around here) believes their car to be faster than everything it sits next to and they are usually condescending about it .

I’m sure none of the guys I’m referencing have ran through rolls of flux core wire to fit a bigger tire in their car 😜

 

[ck80]

Actually no. I don’t believe you to be the usual type in the ‘Hellcat owners club’.

I’m not someone discriminates
Against much of anything other than Cowboy fans and Hellcat owners. The usual Hellcat owner(at least around here) believes their car to be faster than everything it sits next to and they are usually condescending about it .

I’m sure none of the guys I’m referencing have ran through rolls of flux core wire to fit a bigger tire in their car 😜

Also, most hellcat owners don't make their own exhaust systems from their wife's cookie sheets.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

my 84 cutlass had an anemic 305 already swapped into it. it ran fairly decent after a 10 min warmup but was never a performer, but its not surprising considering i probly have a 2.14 rear gear possibly 2.56.
I found an 2002 5.3 LS complete with 220,000km, for $450 cdn and swapped it in, mated to stock Th350.
So now it has more than double the Hp and fair bit more TQ than that 305, its STILL not tire frier due to that rear gear BUT now it runs smooth and idles nicely in about 10 sec vs 10 minutes before.
If i can find a set of 3.42 gears to stick in there it will be much faster!

The 305 should not have taken that long to warm up and run smooth. In good tune a carb engine should be smooth right away.

 

[olds307 and 403]

The 305 should not have taken that long to warm up and run smooth. In good tune a carb engine should be smooth right away.

It will be a non CCC 305. They are very lean from the factory.

 

[rogue_ryder]

Richard Holdner does a good job showing dyno charts and comparing results of different parts combinations. BUT it’s important to understand how HE tests, it’s no accessories and often an electric H2O pump, long tube header and dyno water at low temperature. All parameters help the Dyno give an impressive power number. GMs rating numbers are with all accessories and stock manifolds.

To compare RH’s dyno numbers of that LS to an Olds, you’d need to have the Olds rigged up on the same dyno and in the same manner. FWIW Engine Power did an Olds 350 and they were only able to get IIRC 400 lb/ft out of it and it was BUILT with edelbrock heads, RPM intake and a roller cam. CutlassEFI built a semi low cost 403 (iron heads) and his Dyno numbers were over 500 lb/ft and 450hp pretty stout small block if you ask me.

I’m going to guess that a stock early 70s 455 configured the same way that LS was it’ll be equal to or more torque and probably peak at a much lower RPM. The 455 is probably easier to swap into a Gbody than an LS just harder to find headers (currently on $$$$ ones from ARH or stick with shorties or manifolds).

I’ve got a lot of miles driving LSx engines and they are fantastic. If I were building a super budget BOP car I might do an LS swap, I would swap one into a malibu or monte without hesitation and I’d also do an LSx if I were doing an all out race build Because a ~$10k boosted LS is going to destroy any else at that price point. It’s so hard to NOT do an LS due to the support of the aftermarket and plethora of cores. If you’re ever doubting the LS’s driveability in a truck or SUV especially the gen3 a tune does wonders along with a trans go shift improvement kit for the 4L60e.

With the Gbody I’m going to keep it all OLDS as long as it’s in my possession even if it costs me more $ than an LS and isn’t quite as fast.

 

[ck80]

Also, most hellcat owners don't make their own exhaust systems from their wife's cookie sheets.

Also, just to be clear, that's not a dig, it takes skill to do such a thing.

(Also likely gets some street cred in Saskatchewan, just imagine what he will be able to do with all that front-lawn-derelict-washing-machine raw material he can barter for....)

 

[olds307 and 403]

Richard Holdner does a good job showing dyno charts and comparing results of different parts combinations. BUT it’s important to understand how HE tests, it’s no accessories and often an electric H2O pump, long tube header and dyno water at low temperature. All parameters help the Dyno give an impressive power number. GMs rating numbers are with all accessories and stock manifolds.

To compare RH’s dyno numbers of that LS to an Olds, you’d need to have the Olds rigged up on the same dyno and in the same manner. FWIW Engine Power did an Olds 350 and they were only able to get IIRC 400 lb/ft out of it and it was BUILT with edelbrock heads, RPM intake and a roller cam. CutlassEFI built a semi low cost 403 (iron heads) and his Dyno numbers were over 500 lb/ft and 450hp pretty stout small block if you ask me.

I’m going to guess that a stock early 70s 455 configured the same way that LS was it’ll be equal to or more torque and probably peak at a much lower RPM. The 455 is probably easier to swap into a Gbody than an LS just harder to find headers (currently on $$$$ ones from ARH or stick with shorties or manifolds).

I’ve got a lot of miles driving LSx engines and they are fantastic. If I were building a super budget BOP car I might do an LS swap, I would swap one into a malibu or monte without hesitation and I’d also do an LSx if I were doing an all out race build Because a ~$10k boosted LS is going to destroy any else at that price point. It’s so hard to NOT do an LS due to the support of the aftermarket and plethora of cores. If you’re ever doubting the LS’s driveability in a truck or SUV especially the gen3 a tune does wonders along with a trans go shift improvement kit for the 4L60e.

With the Gbody I’m going to keep it all OLDS as long as it’s in my possession even if it costs me more $ than an LS and isn’t quite as fast.

Even Cutlassefi 350 stroker in its mildest form, 9 to 1, touched up 2"/1.625" valve iron #7 heads with a very mild roller cam did 400 hp and over 500 ft/lbs. Here is that dyno. Even Cutlassefi 350 stroker in its mildest form, 9 to 1, touched up 2"/1.625" valve iron #7 heads with a very mild roller cam did 400 hp and over 500 ft/lbs. It is a good solution to dealing with potential 455 bearing issues and will no doubt take more rpm due to part weight.

I will to visit a couple of the guys here with LS tunes on stock motors. I am only critical of them because 360 hp and 385 ft/lbs should feel very strong. Hell even 320hp and 350 ft/lbs should in completely stock form. The Gen 5 5.3 felt way stronger than the Gen 3 and 4 6L, I have drove.

 

[rogue_ryder]

Even Cutlassefi 350 stroker in its mildest form, 9 to 1, touched up 2"/1.625" valve iron #7 heads with a very mild roller cam did 400 hp and over 500 ft/lbs. Here is that dyno. Even Cutlassefi 350 stroker in its mildest form, 9 to 1, touched up 2"/1.625" valve iron #7 heads with a very mild roller cam did 400 hp and over 500 ft/lbs. It is a good solution to dealing with potential 455 bearing issues and will no doubt take more rpm due to part weight.View attachment 184105 I will to visit a couple of the guys here with LS tunes on stock motors. I am only critical of them because 360 hp and 385 ft/lbs should feel very strong. Hell even 320hp and 350 ft/lbs should in completely stock form. The Gen 5 5.3 felt way stronger than the Gen 3 and 4 6L, I have drove.

That's impressive! I hadn't seen that build of his. I thought the Engine Power 350 was pretty weak with all the trick parts they used, but it's been years since I've seen the episode and I bet CutlassEFI would've spec'd a way better cam than some off the shelf Comp or Edelbrock Performer unit they selected.

I bet the reason the Gen 5 felt so much stronger than the Gen 3 is because the Gen 5 has Variable Cam timing (the Gen 4s do as well). The Gen 5 is definitely superior in a power production standpoint as well but Variable Cam timing really helps maximize the low speed torque and high RPM power, that's probably the single greatest factor affecting driving feel. The only real problem with the Gen 4 & 5 is AFM issues which can be as minor as heavy oil burning or worst case failed lifters.

I used EFILive and a dongle USB to OBDII to collect data on my laptop and then sent that off to Blackbear tuning (they will loan you a dongle) and they developed the tune for my truck, but a Dyno Session with an experienced GM tuner would be even better. It made my truck feel like a completely different truck and with the Shift Improvement kit I have no complaints with how my truck drives, (even just a corvette servo and no tuning or shift kit can really help firm up shifts in the 4L60e, I actually had to pull it out of mine after the shift kit and increased line pressures of the tune caused it'd bark the tires on the 1/2 and 2/3 upshifts) it has instant downshifts and any part throttle hesitation that it had before the tune is gone. I was honestly about ready to sell my truck before the tune because I thought it was such a dog after driving some newer trucks, it didn't bring it up to level of a 6.2 in a Denali or Escalade but it was the best $350 I've spent on the truck by far and saved me thousands by not buying a newer truck.