Why LS swaps made everything better

[69hurstolds]

The issue I have is that WHY must it always be an LS engine? I see nothing wrong with dropping a 455 in where a 307 once was. Or a 454 where that 3.8 used to sit. That is LOTS OF FUN too. Granted, you probably can't thrash on it as hard as you could an LS, but unless you high gear it, the 455 is amazing off the line with 3.73 and a built 200-4R. Expect 9 mpg, so when you get 11.2, you feel like you've really got a gas mizer!! 🙂 I do have a 502 BBC doing nothing atm...

A friend of mine built his Olds 455 several years ago (technically 461) but it was fun as hell from light to light. Sideways wasn't much effort. He never put any suspension mods on it though, and this is where I think he would have really helped himself rather than just tear up tires. His cousin built up a 400 pontiac from a wrecked T/A with TH400 into his 81 GP. OMG that thing was a road raper.

As motorheadmike mentioned, you put some gears in back of an LS and you will tear up tires too. For a lot longer under the power curve. That flat curve, IMO, is what makes the LS engine family much more suitable for just about any application you throw it in.

I am pretty much a purist when it comes to engine swaps. If I had sole control over all engine swaps, all Olds V8 engines would stay where they are if they're in an Olds car. I'll never jump up and down and high-five people for going LS, but I'm also not anti-LS. It's your money, your wrenches, your time. Do what you want. Just don't ask me for help because I will have no idea how to do any of that swap...and that's on purpose.

 

[motorheadmike]

The issue I have is that WHY must it always be an LS engine? I see nothing wrong with dropping a 455 in where a 307 once was. Or a 454 where that 3.8 used to sit. That is LOTS OF FUN too. Granted, you probably can't thrash on it as hard as you could an LS, but unless you high gear it, the 455 is amazing off the line with 3.73 and a built 200-4R. Expect 9 mpg, so when you get 11.2, you feel like you've really got a gas mizer!! 🙂 I do have a 502 BBC doing nothing atm...

A friend of mine built his Olds 455 several years ago (technically 461) but it was fun as hell from light to light. Sideways wasn't much effort. He never put any suspension mods on it though, and this is where I think he would have really helped himself rather than just tear up tires. His cousin built up a 400 pontiac from a wrecked T/A with TH400 into his 81 GP. OMG that thing was a road raper.

As motorheadmike mentioned, you put some gears in back of an LS and you will tear up tires too. For a lot longer under the power curve. That flat curve, IMO, is what makes the LS engine family much more suitable for just about any application you throw it in.

I am pretty much a purist when it comes to engine swaps. If I had sole control over all engine swaps, all Olds V8 engines would stay where they are if they're in an Olds car. I'll never jump up and down and high-five people for going LS, but I'm also not anti-LS. It's your money, your wrenches, your time. Do what you want. Just don't ask me for help because I will have no idea how to do any of that swap...and that's on purpose.

It boils down to the ROI.

You have a clear nostalgic connection to brands. It's mostly because you are old. 😉 And your bias shows. 😉 😉 And we love you for it. 😉 😉 😉 You can afford to do as you please with making things the way you want them.

Other people don't have that affliction to what's "right" in your world. Other enthusiasts are motivated by different things and their ROI is going to be vastly different. Time. Money. Performance goals. Fads. Fitting in. Being paint-by-numbers stupid. Whatever.

30 years ago getting into a muscle car engine was still achievable. Now it is a game of chicken, while playing Russian roulette blind folded. If you can find the parts, find a reliable machine shop, and afford the umpteen times more expensive speed parts. Big risk.

A slightly modified junkyard LS with a 100K miles on it will go another 50-100K and thank you for the beating.

This isn't a criticism, just an observation.

 

[Northernregal]

The issue I have is that WHY must it always be an LS engine? I see nothing wrong with dropping a 455 in where a 307 once was. Or a 454 where that 3.8 used to sit. That is LOTS OF FUN too. Granted, you probably can't thrash on it as hard as you could an LS, but unless you high gear it, the 455 is amazing off the line with 3.73 and a built 200-4R. Expect 9 mpg, so when you get 11.2, you feel like you've really got a gas mizer!! 🙂 I do have a 502 BBC doing nothing atm...

A friend of mine built his Olds 455 several years ago (technically 461) but it was fun as hell from light to light. Sideways wasn't much effort. He never put any suspension mods on it though, and this is where I think he would have really helped himself rather than just tear up tires. His cousin built up a 400 pontiac from a wrecked T/A with TH400 into his 81 GP. OMG that thing was a road raper.

As motorheadmike mentioned, you put some gears in back of an LS and you will tear up tires too. For a lot longer under the power curve. That flat curve, IMO, is what makes the LS engine family much more suitable for just about any application you throw it in.

I am pretty much a purist when it comes to engine swaps. If I had sole control over all engine swaps, all Olds V8 engines would stay where they are if they're in an Olds car. I'll never jump up and down and high-five people for going LS, but I'm also not anti-LS. It's your money, your wrenches, your time. Do what you want. Just don't ask me for help because I will have no idea how to do any of that swap...and that's on purpose.

Because quality 400 Pontiac blocks and Gen VI 454 blocks are hard to find and more expensive to covert to aftermarket EFI systems.

Also what Mike said.

 

[64nailhead]

I think you guys’ goals are a little too low - a 4.8 in a van or pickup is a pig. And the factory cam and rpm range created by it makes it even worse. Maybe if it would’ve been offered in a lightweight car I’d have a different opinion, but in a 4000-8000 application it flat out sucks in stock form.

I think you guys should aim higher

 

[ck80]

The issue I have is that WHY must it always be an LS engine? I see nothing wrong with dropping a 455 in where a 307 once was. Or a 454 where that 3.8 used to sit. That is LOTS OF FUN too. Granted, you probably can't thrash on it as hard as you could an LS, but unless you high gear it, the 455 is amazing off the line with 3.73 and a built 200-4R. Expect 9 mpg, so when you get 11.2, you feel like you've really got a gas mizer!! 🙂 I do have a 502 BBC doing nothing atm...

A friend of mine built his Olds 455 several years ago (technically 461) but it was fun as hell from light to light. Sideways wasn't much effort. He never put any suspension mods on it though, and this is where I think he would have really helped himself rather than just tear up tires. His cousin built up a 400 pontiac from a wrecked T/A with TH400 into his 81 GP. OMG that thing was a road raper.

As motorheadmike mentioned, you put some gears in back of an LS and you will tear up tires too. For a lot longer under the power curve. That flat curve, IMO, is what makes the LS engine family much more suitable for just about any application you throw it in.

I am pretty much a purist when it comes to engine swaps. If I had sole control over all engine swaps, all Olds V8 engines would stay where they are if they're in an Olds car. I'll never jump up and down and high-five people for going LS, but I'm also not anti-LS. It's your money, your wrenches, your time. Do what you want. Just don't ask me for help because I will have no idea how to do any of that swap...and that's on purpose.

I'm fine with everyone wanting to put a boring LS that relies on lots of electronics soon to be discontinued in their cars.

It means the good (real) stuff that isn't ls-muck at swap meets will have less demand, lower prices, and will be waiting for me to buy instead of having tons of demand and higher prices.

Soon, everyone with an ls will face out-of-stock sensors and bits and pieces, and stare at piles of Chinesium aftermarket and junk reman parts that don't work right or long.

And I'll clean and regap my spark plugs, dump gas in, pump the pedal on my rebuildable carb, and drive my computer free engine.

 

[81cutlass]

Flatheads have been out of production for (on the near side) of a century and edelbrock and a plethora of other companies STILL make parts for them. Heck, it's probably easier to build a flathead today than it was in 1953.

There has been factors of magnitude more (gen 3 I think, whatever the 64-71 hemi is) Mopar Hemi engines built ENTIRELY aftermarket from 1970 on than ever were made from dodge and fit in a car from the factory.

The volume of LS's in factory installed condition is sufficient that they will always be making spares. A Corvette will ALWAYS be worth enough to keep on the road. A 2500 6.0 silverado will be used on farms, construction sites and is going to need parts to keep going. An LS will always make someone money and will live on for decades.

A 265 pontiac never got put in anything worth money (or will be worth money) or put in something that will continue to provide money to the owner, so although it is simple, if something does break good luck getting parts. An LS, SBC, Hemi, Flathead, all fit at least 1 category; worth money or makes money. The goofy (but simple) pontiac fits neither.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

I am a tightwad on a lot of things. My 1980 El Camino needs an engine swap to replace the 267 V8 and the TH350. I got lucky and found a wrecked 2008 Express 3500 van with a 6.0 and a 4L80E. I parted out a lot of things off the van and I am only in it for $487 total as of today. I think I will eventually make money off of it as I haven't sold everything I need to sell off the van.

Stock, this 6.0 will put out more power than any SBC crate motor I could buy. With the 6.0, I am a cam and spring swap away for almost 500 HP for about $400 more. Yes I will need a oil pan ($400 Holley), timing cover ($100), motor mounts ($200), and (if I don't use the stock ECM) an aftermarket ECM ($1300), but the price of those are still less than a crate engine or a JY 350 swap with aftermarket heads, intake, and cam. With a SBC, I still will be hard pressed to get into the 400 hp range without aftermarket support which costs more money. I also understand I will most likely get nickel and dimed on other stuff, but I think at the end of the swap, I will be about even to the cost of a crate engine SBC with the same amount of power and I'll have overdrive and EFI.

I do appreciate the person that swaps in a Pontiac, Olds, or Buick engine and enjoy reading about the swap, but for me, it comes down to cost. I don't really care if the LS swaps are a dime a dozen.

Plenty of guys make over 400 HP with junkyard L31 SBCs with just a cam swap, intake manifold, and springs. No matter what engine you use, at 400 + HP a G body is going to need serious reinforcing as they were never built to withstand that power. At 500 you are looking at an aftermarket frame or at least a frame off for boxing.

I'm fine with everyone wanting to put a boring LS that relies on lots of electronics soon to be discontinued in their cars.

It means the good (real) stuff that isn't ls-muck at swap meets will have less demand, lower prices, and will be waiting for me to buy instead of having tons of demand and higher prices.

Soon, everyone with an ls will face out-of-stock sensors and bits and pieces, and stare at piles of Chinesium aftermarket and junk reman parts that don't work right or long.

And I'll clean and regap my spark plugs, dump gas in, pump the pedal on my rebuildable carb, and drive my computer free engine.

Nothing becomes outdated and abandoned faster than electronics and software. Plus the increasing issues of DRM, proprietary software, built in EOL, and strict government regulations in powertrain control systems and parts.

 

[81cutlass]

And besides everyone knows the truth....

 

[ck80]

Plenty of guys make over 400 HP with junkyard L31 SBCs with just a cam swap, intake manifold, and springs. No matter what engine you use, at 400 + HP a G body is going to need serious reinforcing as they were never built to withstand that power. At 500 you are looking at an aftermarket frame or at least a frame off for boxing.

About $600-900 gets a good 350hp and 400lb ft torque out of an old LO5 tbi 350 as well...

I may give the hot rod build a try, have a low mileage 1994 LO5 and 4l80e-hd without a home

Rat Rod Engine Build - Building a Junkyard Small-Block with Tunnel-Ram and Zoomies - Hot Rod Magazine

In this engine tech article HOT ROD builds a junkyard-salvaged small-block Chevy engine with a tunnel-ram intake setup and zoomies that makes respectable power and is perfect for a rat rod - Hot Rod Magazine

www.hotrod.com

Doesn't sound like a bad idea if you leave off the tunnel ram/zoomies/etc and saves a nice chunk of change to boot.

 

[Supercharged111]

The misconception that LSeseses lack low-end grunt is really wrong. They just have a flat torque curves that carry very far out. Power under the curve is far superior to a peaky TPI engine. A boost controller and a 2-step will send lots of power down low on a boosted LS.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a misconception, I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here. The LS DOES produce torque over a broader range in a flatter way. But the 350 Vortec (with a Whipple if I'm honest) makes noticeably more torque where I want it to. I can say this with confidence before the Whipple went on when compared to my neighbor's 6.0 truck. Both are extended cab, short bed, 4wd, 4L80, and 4.10 so fairly similar, just different years 1998 vs 2004. My truck used to have the marine/Ramjet cam, 1.6:1 roller rockers, header back exhaust, and a tuned by me 411 PCM. In a drag race with him bone stock, I could only gain ground on the shifts. Once I flashed his truck, he flat blew my doors off. But that's a drag race. Driving around under 3000 RPM my truck still made more grunt and held OD without a downshift noticeably better. In anything but a car that should haul *ss, this is what I prefer. It's DONE at 5,000, and that's fine for me. I'd prefer the wife's Envoy had the torque delivery of the 350 Vortec and the refinement of the LH6 5.3. The LS broadens its torque curve by killing off its peak with a wider LSA, typically retarded cam timing, and does well to make up for this with better flowing heads and intake. This is good for emissions as well, but doesn't make for a power curve that I like in heavy cars. Would I want a 350 in my C5 Z06? Hell the F no! Basically what I'm saying is the LS isn't the answer to everything. In some platforms I like the old stuff better. But not the smogged out old stuff, that isn't even worth it's weight in scrap.