BUILD THREAD Tomeal's Elky Build

So spent some time on the Elly tonight. Cleaned all the crap off and from around it.

IMG_20240127_200139301.jpg

Charged the battery and started it. Made my quick exhaust a little more permanent. Had the dash just sitting in there. Dug through my pile of screws and found the correct screws to attach the dash.

Now I need to deal with the spaghetti incident that is the dash wiring. I'm afternoon shift all week so will work on it when time allows.

Put the roof seals on. Man they fit like sh*t! Didn't use sealant yet. Will seal it up a little better for now. I will revisit them later.

Pretty much just figured out where I left it, a now making plans to move forward.
 
So I'm chasing a transmission issue. Dropped the pan and this is what I found.

IMG_20240206_152847025.jpg

IMG_20240206_152931193.jpg



Fluid looks pretty well spent. But should I be overly concerned with the glitter? This is a 180k transmission. Don't know the history before I got it. I'm about to flush the rest of the fluid and do a filter change and see where I end up. Transmission fluid isn't cheap anymore, but is cheaper than a new transmission.


The pictires make it look black. There is a very small amount of deep red left. Looks like to me fluid that is well over Doo for a change.

Let me know what you think.
 
If you don’t rebuild that trans now, then you ought to have an expectation of doing it in the near future. Dark fluid is not good, but the glitter is all bad

Unfortunately.
 
So I'm chasing a transmission issue. Dropped the pan and this is what I found.

View attachment 234706

View attachment 234707



Fluid looks pretty well spent. But should I be overly concerned with the glitter? This is a 180k transmission. Don't know the history before I got it. I'm about to flush the rest of the fluid and do a filter change and see where I end up. Transmission fluid isn't cheap anymore, but is cheaper than a new transmission.


The pictires make it look black. There is a very small amount of deep red left. Looks like to me fluid that is well over Doo for a change.

Let me know what you think.
You should reach out to Cox Transmission, its who did my rebuild. They were really good people and did it pretty fast and very fair priced, it is at least worth the call to get someone who rebuilds them opinion. He won't talk you into it if he doesn't feel you need it
 
I'll preface this comment by stating I'm not a transmission rebuilder, converter salesman, or even familiar with HP Tuners. However, I have fried over a dozen transmissions as if it's some sort of natural ability- how nice I am to them doesn't seem to matter because even new ones have refused to function properly. Over the years I've gained a little insight from personal experience, witnessing issues in other garages, as well as many hours of research. I know absolutely nothing about your 6L90e, though I've never seen a factory GM O.D. trans last 200k miles. Hell I never see them clear 150k, and they seem to start going south rather quickly after about 110k. In years past 100k meant the car was trash so the Big 3 use that as a point of "good enough": Today's engines last longer, but once a transmission hits triple digits the safe play is to start saving for another.

In my experience putting fresh fluid in at this point could possibly usher that transmission right into an early grave. It's my belief that if the fluid isn't changed religiously every 25k miles (or sooner), and if it clears 100k without ever being changed then you better just keep using that fluid. Automakers know that most consumers don't keep up on transmission services yet still expect a car to last 100k miles, so the transmission will normally last about that long provided it's been kept full of fluid. I know it sounds crazy, but I've killed multiple transmissions by simply putting in fresh fluid and a filter, and I'm not the only one. The super fine sediment is actually helping the clutches grab right now, and once you replace it with slippery new fluid with friction modifiers you might end up with a "box of neutrals" due to their inability to grip anything. The gaps between clutches/steels, pressure plates, and pistons are bigger and the pressure is lower so adding a higher viscosity fluid such as Type F or Lucas may help, but it will affect transmission performance across the board and not always favorably. "Not favorably" is especially true in the newer electronic transmissions such as yours. Also, if memory serves correctly the black stuff is carbon clutch material from the forward gears and the glitter is brass torque converter material. Converters contain lots of brass (brazed fins and all), the only source I know of inside the trans is thrust washers and I'm pretty sure they're all plastic now.

It's worth noting that this exact issue has occurred to me mostly on GM RWD 4spd O.D. trannies which are notorious for having internal valve body leaks/issues, especially in the 3/4 clutch system. The (post '99?) 4l60/65/70e series with a continuous slip converter REALLY needs the fluid changed often. Even the 6l80es eat converters, especially when large wheels and tires are mounted to stock trucks. When the '65e converter in my '04 Sierra "locks up" or fully engages it's programmed from the factory to never do so 100% so its common to switch over to F Body converter tables and use aftermarket converter that's designed to be slammed On/Off. Hello "5th gear". Changing the converter duty cycle via computer and performing a throttle valve & boost valve swap helps remedy poor shifting and converter issues.

For a new converter I recommend Yank, Precision Industries, or Circle D- they get nothing but high praise from all that use them, and it's probably because they're very thorough and make high quality products that really perform. I spent $700 on a budget friendly one from Circle D last summer but haven't ran it yet. With 6 forward gears you can go stupid high on the STR, which means you can have a 4k stall converter that drives perfectly on the street both in town and on the freeway. A low STR would only benefit you at high speed upper RPMs, and would cost you sluggishness off the line. It works for drag cars that run out of steam at the big end by slipping less up top- again at the cost of low rpm responsiveness. A high STR will allow you to drive normally as if you had a stock converter but will still flash stall at the appropriate RPM when you mash it. The issue here has always been a shortage of gears to make the fun last- a TH350 with a high STR would be great stoplight to stoplight but would fall on its face at the track if built for torque. Three more gears means you can jump off the line and still cruise long distances without frying your converter.

For this transmission at this time perhaps the nicest thing you could do for it short of a complete overhaul is install a budget converter such as Allstar or Dacco, a Trans-Go shift kit (avoid B&M), and a new separator plate that doesn't have worn feed/exhaust holes. If that thing has 180k miles on it I bet the plate has been beaten to death and the BBs are trying to go through it. Doing these things will decrease leaks, restore line pressure, and even redirect fluid paths. The budget converter isn't necessary but your stocker is going out and wouldn't make good use of the shift kit, and spending $1k on a good one to put in a failing trans is a waste. Plan on spending AT LEAST $2k on a new trans, and another $1k on a good converter. If you can swing it invest at least 3 on the trans and buy the best converter you can afford. This isn't a place where being frugal has ever paid off for me. Ever. Even buying things that you'd think were all the same. The biggest lesson I've learned about transmissions is that good ones are expensive one way or another.

When it comes to this sort of thing you need only look to one member here: Hutch. The man is on the cutting edge of development in this arena and possesses knowledge that is only shared by about 3 others in the entire world. I'm definitely NOT one of them.
 
Here's a list of parts purveyors I've used and respect as well as a list of people on LS1Tech who know all there is to know about rebuilding or modifying the GM overdrive transmission.IMG_20240207_155756812.jpg
 
Sorry to leave you guys hanging for a couple of days. I was deep into figuring out what i did to the transmission.

So long story a little shorter, I got the car to a running point last summer. Took it for a short run and the 16yo kid in me did a brake stand in it. After that it has not run right. My final thought is that i smoked second gear in my worn out transmission. after what i found in the pan i'm not surprised. i let the car sit all last summer into fall because i was laid off and money was a little tight. with this rare break with nice weather i decided to dig into it again. the past couple nights i've been messing with it. i'm not the type to be like its broken and just fix it. i like to try and figure out what happened and the cause. its valuable information for later.

If you don’t rebuild that trans now, then you ought to have an expectation of doing it in the near future. Dark fluid is not good, but the glitter is all bad

Unfortunately.

Chasing a trans issue and seeing fluid like this would be a concern. Glitter is never good. I'd talk with a reputable trans guy before wasting money by adding new fluid.


with the mileage on this thing i never thought it would be long term. i was hoping to get it to a running state, shake down everything else i did and then move forward. I brought this thing home as a bare frame and stripped down body. even though its taken me this long it still feels like an accomplishment. and besides the ls swap part of this works great. it starts every time now. I thought that would be the hardest part.

I'll preface this comment by stating I'm not a transmission rebuilder, converter salesman, or even familiar with HP Tuners. However, I have fried over a dozen transmissions as if it's some sort of natural ability- how nice I am to them doesn't seem to matter because even new ones have refused to function properly. Over the years I've gained a little insight from personal experience, witnessing issues in other garages, as well as many hours of research. I know absolutely nothing about your 6L90e, though I've never seen a factory GM O.D. trans last 200k miles. Hell I never see them clear 150k, and they seem to start going south rather quickly after about 110k. In years past 100k meant the car was trash so the Big 3 use that as a point of "good enough": Today's engines last longer, but once a transmission hits triple digits the safe play is to start saving for another.

In my experience putting fresh fluid in at this point could possibly usher that transmission right into an early grave. It's my belief that if the fluid isn't changed religiously every 25k miles (or sooner), and if it clears 100k without ever being changed then you better just keep using that fluid. Automakers know that most consumers don't keep up on transmission services yet still expect a car to last 100k miles, so the transmission will normally last about that long provided it's been kept full of fluid. I know it sounds crazy, but I've killed multiple transmissions by simply putting in fresh fluid and a filter, and I'm not the only one. The super fine sediment is actually helping the clutches grab right now, and once you replace it with slippery new fluid with friction modifiers you might end up with a "box of neutrals" due to their inability to grip anything. The gaps between clutches/steels, pressure plates, and pistons are bigger and the pressure is lower so adding a higher viscosity fluid such as Type F or Lucas may help, but it will affect transmission performance across the board and not always favorably. "Not favorably" is especially true in the newer electronic transmissions such as yours. Also, if memory serves correctly the black stuff is carbon clutch material from the forward gears and the glitter is brass torque converter material. Converters contain lots of brass (brazed fins and all), the only source I know of inside the trans is thrust washers and I'm pretty sure they're all plastic now.

It's worth noting that this exact issue has occurred to me mostly on GM RWD 4spd O.D. trannies which are notorious for having internal valve body leaks/issues, especially in the 3/4 clutch system. The (post '99?) 4l60/65/70e series with a continuous slip converter REALLY needs the fluid changed often. Even the 6l80es eat converters, especially when large wheels and tires are mounted to stock trucks. When the '65e converter in my '04 Sierra "locks up" or fully engages it's programmed from the factory to never do so 100% so its common to switch over to F Body converter tables and use aftermarket converter that's designed to be slammed On/Off. Hello "5th gear". Changing the converter duty cycle via computer and performing a throttle valve & boost valve swap helps remedy poor shifting and converter issues.

For a new converter I recommend Yank, Precision Industries, or Circle D- they get nothing but high praise from all that use them, and it's probably because they're very thorough and make high quality products that really perform. I spent $700 on a budget friendly one from Circle D last summer but haven't ran it yet. With 6 forward gears you can go stupid high on the STR, which means you can have a 4k stall converter that drives perfectly on the street both in town and on the freeway. A low STR would only benefit you at high speed upper RPMs, and would cost you sluggishness off the line. It works for drag cars that run out of steam at the big end by slipping less up top- again at the cost of low rpm responsiveness. A high STR will allow you to drive normally as if you had a stock converter but will still flash stall at the appropriate RPM when you mash it. The issue here has always been a shortage of gears to make the fun last- a TH350 with a high STR would be great stoplight to stoplight but would fall on its face at the track if built for torque. Three more gears means you can jump off the line and still cruise long distances without frying your converter.

For this transmission at this time perhaps the nicest thing you could do for it short of a complete overhaul is install a budget converter such as Allstar or Dacco, a Trans-Go shift kit (avoid B&M), and a new separator plate that doesn't have worn feed/exhaust holes. If that thing has 180k miles on it I bet the plate has been beaten to death and the BBs are trying to go through it. Doing these things will decrease leaks, restore line pressure, and even redirect fluid paths. The budget converter isn't necessary but your stocker is going out and wouldn't make good use of the shift kit, and spending $1k on a good one to put in a failing trans is a waste. Plan on spending AT LEAST $2k on a new trans, and another $1k on a good converter. If you can swing it invest at least 3 on the trans and buy the best converter you can afford. This isn't a place where being frugal has ever paid off for me. Ever. Even buying things that you'd think were all the same. The biggest lesson I've learned about transmissions is that good ones are expensive one way or another.

When it comes to this sort of thing you need only look to one member here: Hutch. The man is on the cutting edge of development in this arena and possesses knowledge that is only shared by about 3 others in the entire world. I'm definitely NOT one of them.

Thank you for your input. its input like this that is invaluable. i do appreciate your insight.

You should reach out to Cox Transmission, its who did my rebuild. They were really good people and did it pretty fast and very fair priced, it is at least worth the call to get someone who rebuilds them opinion. He won't talk you into it if he doesn't feel you need it


i have a place local to me that i'd like to reach out to just to see what they say. i have low expectations because they like to push you towards buying a rebuild rather than working on your old stuff. they have a circle of guys they know and do work for and push new guys away.

I appreciate your input on a place that you feel is reputable. i will contact them to get their opinion.

On a side note, through all of this i did get a better picture of it in the current state.

IMG_20240205_121301100_HDR.jpg

stay tuned
 
Like the proverb, sez, "All that glitters is not gold." In the case of what is lying on the bottom of that pan, I'd suspect what you have is a hurt transmission that is going to need a serious rebuild sometime in the immediate future. Doing it now is a pain in the pocket book but might actually save you a sawbuck or two as opposed to holding off and having more issues arise, or it going totally terminal on you.

True story. Needed a transmission to complete an engine swap so scored one from the salvage yard. The owner warned me that 2nd was marginal (good dude, we still do business) but I figured that I might be able to keep the box together for as long as I would need it just by changing the oil and filter. When that car finally went to the crusher, that box went with it; 2nd gear was totally gone. So bad that stuffing bananas down the dipstick pipe wouldn't have helped. So bad that you'd accelerate in first and it would barely touch 2nd before jumping right to third. Brutal in stop and go commuter traffic. Found that most of what little had been left of the friction material for the plates had migrated south to take up residence in the pan. The point about frequent ATF changes is well taken, the stuff is $$$ but a new or reman box is more so.



Nick
 
Sorry to leave you guys hanging for a couple of days. I was deep into figuring out what i did to the transmission.

So long story a little shorter, I got the car to a running point last summer. Took it for a short run and the 16yo kid in me did a brake stand in it. After that it has not run right. My final thought is that i smoked second gear in my worn out transmission. after what i found in the pan i'm not surprised. i let the car sit all last summer into fall because i was laid off and money was a little tight. with this rare break with nice weather i decided to dig into it again. the past couple nights i've been messing with it. i'm not the type to be like its broken and just fix it. i like to try and figure out what happened and the cause. its valuable information for later.






with the mileage on this thing i never thought it would be long term. i was hoping to get it to a running state, shake down everything else i did and then move forward. I brought this thing home as a bare frame and stripped down body. even though its taken me this long it still feels like an accomplishment. and besides the ls swap part of this works great. it starts every time now. I thought that would be the hardest part.



Thank you for your input. its input like this that is invaluable. i do appreciate your insight.




i have a place local to me that i'd like to reach out to just to see what they say. i have low expectations because they like to push you towards buying a rebuild rather than working on your old stuff. they have a circle of guys they know and do work for and push new guys away.

I appreciate your input on a place that you feel is reputable. i will contact them to get their opinion.

On a side note, through all of this i did get a better picture of it in the current state.

View attachment 234855

stay tuned
Looking good, I think its all the more reason I guess I had forgot you had a newer transmission in it. Cox usually deals with the older stuff, but to me it is all the more reason to reach out to them. He will give you an honest opinion of what he sees in the pan without the plan of trying to up sell you
 
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