BUILD THREAD 86 GP 2+2~Blown 6.0

wingnutks

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Feb 15, 2016
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That makes perfect sense, and I've never thought about the difference between lug nut type. Is that the reason for the flat spacers that go under the lug nut and no conical lug nuts?

I'm running Weld Drag Lites that take a straight shank lug nut with a 'thinnish' washer that are a Weld part number (1/2" 20) and I keep eating up the washers and lug nuts where the lug engages the washer. Torquing to 95ft/lbs per Weld. FWIW, I had a wheel off last night and I was looking hard at my studs to make sure they didn't look like Jake's, and they don't.

I could run a thicker washer if I could find them as I still have about an 1/8" or so of wheel stud thread sticking out of the lug nut? I have 3" wheel studs.



Jake - I'm stealing your thread haha. But it sounds like you might need a wheel upgrade and I might need a both a wheel stud and wheel upgrade (which sucks because I like the Drag Lites and have 3 sets of them.)
Conical legs nuts leave alot of the wheel stud completely unsupported and the wheel basically floats on the wheel studs. Shank lug nuts go all the way thru the rim and ALMOST bottom out on the axle flange,this makes the moment of action on the stud just off the face of the axle flange. Also the od of the shanks are same as the Id of the wheel holes so the wheel doesn't float on the studs.
I went 1.34 60' with 1/2 strange studs no problem.
 
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81cutlass

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Conical legs nuts leave alot of the wheel stud completely unsupported and the wheel basically floats on the wheel studs. Shank lug nuts go all the way thru the rim and ALMOST bottom out on the axle flange,this makes the moment of action on the stud just off the face of the axle flange. Also the od of the shanks are same as the Id of the wheel holes so the wheel doesn't float on the studs.
I went 1.34 60' with 1/2 strange studs no problem.

That's what makes sense & what I thought until my machine design class. I understand both ways of thinking (shear of the bolt itself vs. clamp load of the joint) but it's such a hard concept to work your brain around so it's still difficult for me to work through it. What you are describing seems right but that's not how bolts work, or at least not how they work in THIS case. It took me a few months to understand it and I can at least call it out when I see it, but it's still hard to understand for me fully.

What your described is a pin joint, think dowel pins. Wheels are a friction or slip-critical type joint. The lugs don't see any shear loading in a normal case, they only should see tension. When they get loose and see shear loads they break.

My understanding is there is a lot of designs that converged into why shank lugs exist but the shanks don't actually support the weight of the vehicle or torque of the wheel. The friction between the wheel and hub created by the clamp load of the lugs is what supports the load. Where I have mentally got to is that these two designs do the same thing, just different methods

A) Shank style lugs locate the wheel concentric to the axle rotation, think most aftermarket drag wheels, old school slot mags or the sketchy uni-lugwheels. Because these aftermarket wheel companies where cheap and tried to be universal the shank lugs allowed one wheel to fit multiple manufacturers that used different hub pilot diameters, allowed one wheel to fit different bolt patterns, allowed different lug diameters (7/16, 1/2", m12) etc. The lugs don't see any horizontal load during normal use, the only purpose of the shank is to locate the wheel & the lug torque clamps the wheel onto the hub like any other application. If you could somehow remove the sleeve/shank from the wheel after the wheel was centered & properly torqued you could drive on it, the lug shouldn't see any horizontal load.
B) Conical/acorn lugs, think everything OEM GM, the wheel pilots to a hub to make sure it's concentric, the acorn/taper just provides a small clean surface for the lug to contact.

Basically if you have a 3/8-20 lug nut & torque it to 50ftlb and a 1/2-20 or 3/4-20 all torqued to 50ftlb, it will have the same clamp load. It will be able to support the same payload or torque. The reason larger lugs are used is to be able to apply more torque & gain more clamp force. Going from M12 to 5/8 studs gains you nothing unless you torque the fasteners more.

If bolts did work as pins & not fasteners tightening the lugs more won't actually generate any more joint capacity.



I guess it's a lot of words to say that from my understanding shank lugs won't do anything to solve my problem, the reason mine bent is because the clamp load from the torque I did apply wasn't enough to resist the torque going through the joint. Even if the lugs were 1ft long as long as the fastener was sufficiently stuff & torqued properly the length of the stud extending from the hub flange to the bottom of the wheel is unimportant.

I don't have the math done to back it up but my mechanics professor would fail you if you tried using shear load of the bolt in a shear load case instead of the clamp load generated from the hardware.
 
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wingnutks

Master Mechanic
Feb 15, 2016
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That's what makes sense & what I thought until my machine design class. I understand both ways of thinking (shear of the bolt itself vs. clamp load of the joint) but it's such a hard concept to work your brain around so it's still difficult for me to work through it. What you are describing seems right but that's not how bolts work, or at least not how they work in THIS case. It took me a few months to understand it and I can at least call it out when I see it, but it's still hard to understand for me fully.

What your described is a pin joint, think dowel pins. Wheels are a friction or slip-critical type joint. The lugs don't see any shear loading in a normal case, they only should see tension. When they get loose and see shear loads they break.

My understanding is there is a lot of designs that converged into why shank lugs exist but the shanks don't actually support the weight of the vehicle or torque of the wheel. The friction between the wheel and hub created by the clamp load of the lugs is what supports the load. Where I have mentally got to is that these two designs do the same thing, just different methods

A) Shank style lugs locate the wheel concentric to the axle rotation, think most aftermarket drag wheels, old school slot mags or the sketchy uni-lugwheels. Because these aftermarket wheel companies where cheap and tried to be universal the shank lugs allowed one wheel to fit multiple manufacturers that used different hub pilot diameters, allowed one wheel to fit different bolt patterns, allowed different lug diameters (7/16, 1/2", m12) etc. The lugs don't see any horizontal load during normal use, the only purpose of the shank is to locate the wheel & the lug torque clamps the wheel onto the hub like any other application. If you could somehow remove the sleeve/shank from the wheel after the wheel was centered & properly torqued you could drive on it, the lug shouldn't see any horizontal load.
B) Conical/acorn lugs, think everything OEM GM, the wheel pilots to a hub to make sure it's concentric, the acorn/taper just provides a small clean surface for the lug to contact.

Basically if you have a 3/8-20 lug nut & torque it to 50ftlb and a 1/2-20 or 3/4-20 all torqued to 50ftlb, it will have the same clamp load. It will be able to support the same payload or torque. The reason larger lugs are used is to be able to apply more torque & gain more clamp force. Going from M12 to 5/8 studs gains you nothing unless you torque the fasteners more.

If bolts did work as pins & not fasteners tightening the lugs more won't actually generate any more joint capacity.



I guess it's a lot of words to say that from my understanding shank lugs won't do anything to solve my problem, the reason mine bent is because the clamp load from the torque I did apply wasn't enough to resist the torque going through the joint. Even if the lugs were 1ft long as long as the fastener was sufficiently stuff & torqued properly the length of the stud extending from the hub flange to the bottom of the wheel is unimportant.

I don't have the math done to back it up but my mechanics professor would fail you if you tried using shear load of the bolt in a shear load case instead of the clamp load generated from the hardware.
I 100% get what ur saying, which is why I said make sure the wheel is clean before u torque it. Also why I said not to torque an oem 12mm to 100ftlbs...it likely won't make a difference because the cheap oem hardware will just stretch when u hit the tire hard enough and u will lose clamping force.
In theory with clamp force the wheel shouldn't slip, but it can happen. If the wheel slips you are less likely to bend the stud because ud basically have to bend the shank nut too.
I went 1.55-1.60 60' with oem GN studs and shank lug nuts for years, when I sold the rear they had zero bend in them. I think I used to torque them to 80ftlbs?
Also all wheels are d created equal, some have more of less surface area on the back of the wheel for better stiction.
Also the hole design of drag wheels is different than that of street wheels.

Your a stick car, I would really look into shank lugs if I were you... Or maybe get a set of the conical shank studs...they might work good with ur wheels.
 
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64nailhead

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Doesn’t a shank nut with a washer allow for more clamping force because of more surface area between the washer and wheel? Basically, able to torque higher with more clamping force due to surface area?
 
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81cutlass

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Doesn’t a shank nut with a washer allow for more clamping force because of more surface area between the washer and wheel? Basically, able to torque higher with more clamping force due to surface area?

Yeah, they have a larger frustrum, and that gets deep into the joint stiffness calculations which I tried to repress that chapter lol.


Randy's big cube Pontiac on spray in his mid 9 sec 4100lb '70 GP runs 1/2 studs and he says they are a consumable item. He said he gets about 2 years out of them. He did recommend 5/8 studs if I can make it work.


I test fit a 5/8-18 bolt in my Y1 aluminum wheels. They clear. They don't clear my steelies but they can be drilled and it's not uncommon.

The biggest issue i have is finding a 5/8-18 extended conical open top lug. I can barely get anything larger than a 3/4 socket in to torque the m12 stud. 5/8 lugs use a 15/16 or 1" socket which won't fit in the Y1 wheels.

I think 5/8 studs and these lugs will clear but holy hell $110 for lugs is $$$

PXL_20220929_220020619.jpg
 
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wingnutks

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Yeah, they have a larger frustrum, and that gets deep into the joint stiffness calculations which I tried to repress that chapter lol.


Randy's big cube Pontiac on spray in his mid 9 sec 4100lb '70 GP runs 1/2 studs and he says they are a consumable item. He said he gets about 2 years out of them. He did recommend 5/8 studs if I can make it work.


I test fit a 5/8-18 bolt in my Y1 aluminum wheels. They clear. They don't clear my steelies but they can be drilled and it's not uncommon.

The biggest issue i have is finding a 5/8-18 extended conical open top lug. I can barely get anything larger than a 3/4 socket in to torque the m12 stud. 5/8 lugs use a 15/16 or 1" socket which won't fit in the Y1 wheels.

I think 5/8 studs and these lugs will clear but holy hell $110 for lugs is $$$

View attachment 207952
The wheels in this picture take a conical lug?
 
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81cutlass

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The wheels in this picture take a conical lug?

Yes.

These Y1 aluminum 17's do look like like they could also take a shank style however. Y1 probably designed them to accept either. They have the flat counterbore face for a washer. The ID of the hole is around that .6875" that the strange sleeve kit has. Issue is that these Y1 17" street wheels aren't my concern, it's the 15" steelies. The street wheels don't have the traction to bend anything.



I'm probably overthinking this. 1/2-20 are probably fine, I just need to get the right lug nuts & torque to spec. The option of 5/8 works however...
 
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81cutlass

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I ended up sourcing a 5/8 stud & lug nut that SHOULD work. I can just sneak a 7/8 socket into the Y1 wheel and it barely clears. I'll need to pull these axles out & drill & tap for 5/8-18 along with cutting the top half off these lugs that I sourced but with a lathe almost every insurmountable problem is achievable. A 7/8 hex, long, 5/8 open end lug doesn't seem to exist but no biggy.

Parts are on order

The only problem is somehow I threw my L5 out of my back due to an ergo issue working from my couch last week (man my 30's are going to suck lol) so I am taking myself out of car commission for at least a week until my body parts are back in the place they are supposed to be. I think my wife is going to lock me in the house for a month if I get caught doing something that could injure myself again in the near term so might as well tackle some backlog of ECM tuning, CAD design & more desk related projects I guess.
 
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Tony1968

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I started with L5 in my 20's. Then L3 and L4. Then C6, C7.
Take it seriously and do whatever you can to avoid surgery.
 
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Supercharged111

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I started with L5 in my 20's. Then L3 and L4. Then C6, C7.
Take it seriously and do whatever you can to avoid surgery.

I disagree with avoiding surgery at all costs. Avoid a fusion, sure, but I got a port and polish and have been good to go since. Get an MRI, see what's really wrong, see what your options are, and make an educated decision. I was not going to live my life for the rest of my life the way I did before my back surgery if I had a choice, and I did.
 
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