BUILD THREAD 86 GP 2+2~Blown 6.0

[81cutlass]

I think Holdner is selling out more and more. Unless there is a packaging concern an eBay GT45 is more than capable of achieving the same power or more in this application. Obviously there is a powerband and torque trade off. But, hooking up nearly 700ft/lbs isn't easy on the best of days, and all of that low engine speed cylinder pressure is going to bend rods if the RPM shift drop is wrong. I'd like to see back to back with average power compared between these two "budget" options.

Yeah more and more lately I agree, I'm not opposed to him spending money on tests, I just wish he wouldn't say 'low buck' when nothing about billet intake manifolds or $1000+ superchargers is 'low buck'.

You need to make a dyno pull with that motor clearly past peak and falling off a bit as well, you may end up twisting the thing closer to 7000 than 6750. You won't know until you see what it actually does, then nerd out and thumb drive the pull and horse around on winpep I think it's called to determine your shift RPM. We have a guy who was notorious for short shifting his Mustang. He'd get toward the big end of a straightaway and grab his short 5th shifting at 5000 RPMs. The difference was dramatic, literally anchors away. Start at 2:17

The Mustang is 150# lighter than me, we're both making 260whp. Sure I took turn 3 better than he did, but listen for his car to hit 5th and watch my car eat. I'm just wringing its neck in 4th, can't remember if I hit the rev cut or not. Now imagine you're doing the same as this Mustang on every shift. I think I'm kind of beating a dead horse here, but I wouldn't settle for just guessing that 6750 is the magic number, I'd want to see it in the dyno pull.

Getting the car on a dyno this summer is top 3 to-do.

I'll admit carving corners with the beater camaro does look like a blast!

The TB isn’t the issue - boost will overcome it. Make an adapter to run a stock TPI TB or a 90mm chyna LS TB. You have a machine that makes what you desire.

I'd disagree there, there are a lot of tests that show throttle body size matters on blower cars quite a bit. Every 1inch of mercury lost in the plenum between the TB and the rotor pack is compounded in potential airflow transfer to the high pressure side and it's at risk of cavitation. It's more similar to a tiny airfilter on a turbo car than the throttle body on a turbo car.

My LS2 TB is a 90mm and fits, it just doesn't fit for MOST people because it requires making a 90mm round hole blended into a 50x200mm oval.

I'd also be skeptical of an LT1 or TPI dual port GM TB being large enough to satisfy 550-700hp.

 

[mclellan83]

Senor Rich got around to putting a ford TVS2300 with one of the demuse engineering adapter plates on an LS. Basically the demuse manifold is the same setup I have but I use the Maggie upper and lower tub halves with a maggie cooler and an adapter plate to put the GT500 bolt pattern onto the maggie upper plate, where the demuse kit just uses the maggie lower tub and a billet upper and non maggie water cooler.

I also run a separate 8 rib belt drive off the balancer vs. sharing the 6 rib off the water pump PS and Alt.

He mentions quite a bit about how you should get the cheap M122 & TVS 2300 blowers NOW before the price goes up. I hate to break it to him but the prices went up 5 years ago and honestly are at the point where the swap is cost-prohibitive.

I bought my 1500 mile M122 in 2015 for $200
Ebay takeoff 5.4 M122 are $800-$1500 these days
And Ebay takeoff TVS2300 5.8 13/14 blowers are $2000+ because they are bolt on upgrades for early 5.4 cars and they only made them for 2 years and few people upgrade them anyways because they are so good. I have seen 1 TVS2300 for $1200 I should have bought but it's still a big chunk of $$$ for power I have a hard time using.

He used a bolt on Roush/ford performance TVS2300 for a 5.0 (probably because it got sponsored, delivered at low cost, whatever, but that's probably still a $4k part even without the kit as a service part, and nobody in their right mind is parting out a roush kit or upgrading it.

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But, it does make power. He got 650 with 15psi on a high comp L33 5.3 with E85 with tiny throttle body. I run the lq4 6.0 at low comp with 11.5psi and a smaller blower pulley & a 92mm throttle. My M122 is MUCH less of a blower than a TVS2300 despite the bolt pattern and overall size being really close.

But what I see again is that I gotta spin the thing past 6250! I have been shifting at 6250 and my drop RPM was like 3750-4000ish. If I can shift at 6750 my bottom end shift RPM should be at 4500-4750ish which is like an 80hp increase. Comparing apples to oranges a little here but with the table top power curve up top it's more evidence I gotta stop being a wimp! Haha!
View attachment 197865


It's just TOTALLY NOT WORTH spending $1000-$4000 on a blower plus the probably $2000+ on the demuse kit plus $500 on the maggie lower manifold.

Just put a turbo on the damn thing or spend $8k on a new maggie kit if you want a blower!

I've been wanting to put a Maggie on the GTO since I got it pretty much, back when it was feasible it was like 5k but couldn't sell the gf at the time on it. Now even with shop pricing it insane what they want for that stuff and I'm sure only to continue to sky rocket

China bad.

 

[Northernregal]

China bad.

 

[motorheadmike]

View attachment 197901

Is that better or worse than coming from a Ukrainian bio-lab manned by a former disgraced CAF General? I am going to assume the Russians aren't going to be giving him a free pass like it got from our court system.

 

[Texas82GP]

View attachment 197901

China bad.

 

[Northernregal]

Is that better or worse than coming from a Ukrainian bio-lab manned by a former disgraced CAF General? I am going to assume the Russians aren't going to be giving him a free pass like it got from our court system.

 

[64nailhead]

I'd disagree there, there are a lot of tests that show throttle body size matters on blower cars quite a bit. Every 1inch of mercury lost in the plenum between the TB and the rotor pack is compounded in potential airflow transfer to the high pressure side and it's at risk of cavitation. It's more similar to a tiny airfilter on a turbo car than the throttle body on a turbo car.

My LS2 TB is a 90mm and fits, it just doesn't fit for MOST people because it requires making a 90mm round hole blended into a 50x200mm oval.

I'd also be skeptical of an LT1 or TPI dual port GM TB being large enough to satisfy 550-700hp.

Ya know, I forgot about the blower/sucking issue with the TB. I hear boost and think push, not pull. Thanks for correcting me.

Regarding Holdener - yeah. Watching both him and Happel bend over to Brian Tooley with the ‘Best Cam’ and ‘Truck Norris cam’ is almost hilarious knowing the back story. The SS2 Elgin outruns both. But now we, followers of Happel and Holdener, are supposedly concerned about driveablility below 3500rpm’s.

Repeat, outruns them both and it’s still $250 US on Amazon. Watching Happel dump Elgin, which is about one of the most ‘American Made’ old school companies out there, is disappointing. He’s beginning to fall prey to financial backers rather than what he built Sloppy on. His latest build almost made me unsubscribe from him
- a new Edge with bought everything - YUCK! Not for me. He’s getting close to forgetting his roots.


Back to your thread - you were correct about the TB. But put the boost on the other side of the throttle blade and we can discuss 😉 🙂

 

[81cutlass]

Was at the inlaw's for some family stuff and did a quick check on the 2+2.

Took car cover off
Hooked up battery
Primed fuel system with 2 key turns
Started great
Backed out of storage
Zipped down the road to make sure everything is normal (it was)
Laid a nice patch of rubber from 1st through 3rd gear
Put back in storage

Thankfully there wasn't any significant mouse signs (just an acorn shell on the cowl). Been pretty aggressive with resetting traps & moth balls on the floors in the garage since it's in the woods.

This one garage spot at home thing has to get solved. With the hail that rolled through last week I'm too chicken to park either the Cutlass or the 2+2 outside full time in the summer and my Wife has the other spot locked down so that means one thing has to sit 4 hours away in storage year round. I could pay for local storage but this storage is free so it has it's plusses.

Better start looking at a garage addition more seriously...

 

[81cutlass]

Car's back home. Info overload post.

Got the day off so getting hotels reserved for drag weekend and planning out my to do list for the next few weeks.

Throwin' the money tree at the car to get my soft 80-330ft time sorted out. Going to try to spin the engine to 6800 instead of 6250 and tie the front down on launch a bit better.

I've got a set of old comp engineering 90/10 front shocks which although are better than KYB's for drag, the car weighs too much and has too much lift & fall on shifts. I'm sure the comp eng are fine for a gutted auto NA bracket car but a full weight stick car with boost they are too loose and I have issues with the car coming up too fast on the launch (nose goes straight up before the car even starts to move) and the nose falls hard on shifts (too soft on compression) and smacks the bump stops hard so it unloads the rear suspension. More stick car probs.

Grainy video analysis (this was a 1.80 60ft)-

Right before the launch,

Now the rear tire has squatted and the car has moved forward maybe 6 inches but the front suspension is already at full droop

Now I'm maybe half a car out, so sub 10 feet, car is still at full droop on the front suspension

And then maybe 1 car out, and the front has 'collapsed' and is at full compression and has unloaded the rear tire. Combination of too little RPM so out of the power band when the clutch does couple (which i can tune out but thats a lot of slip), and letting the nose come up too easily, hitting travel limit, and then pogo-sticking down. I was able to tune the slip out over maybe 60ft which got my 60ft down, but i just ended up pogo sticking at 80ft out which made my 330 time suck.

And now i'm like 1.5-2 cars out and the nose is up, back to full droop. Granted this video makes it look worse than it is on a 'tuned' clutch slip pass, but shows kinda what I have dealt with

And that's the 60ft light, so the car does all that pogo sticking in like 35-40ft.

The 3.73's are also not correct for my mph. They'd be fine if I had a loose converter and I could live with some converter slip but 0% slip clutch life.... The cam makes peak power at ~6700 but i've been shifting at 6250 for years out of misinformation and i've never had a 60ft worth a crap until last fall so it's never been a concern to run out the back faster when I tireshook, bogged, and broke driveline parts for 3 years. With 3.73 & my 28" tire it will go like 150mph mathematically through the traps at 6800rpm. I don't have 150mph power lol, maybe with a TVS2300 and some baller heads on methanol. I probably have 128mph power tops. 4.30's will put me through the traps at 123mph/6300 rpm and 131mph/6800 rpm so some room to grow if I find power I didn't know I had. Having a .5 OD means it will still cruise 80mph at 2500rpm so no concern there.

Got a set of 4.30 rear gears ordered from QP and Viking DA fronts. See if that solves my issues and gets me from 11.60's to 10.90 ish. The car has run 122mph, and if it weighs 3750 & makes 550hp the calculator says it should go 10.90 @ 123 so things make sense. I'd be happy with that if I can do it at 3 tracks in 3 days. Despite the internet dock (keeping it PG around here, give me a break 😛) measuring contests, driving a 40 year old car to the track, clicking off a 10, and then driving home these days is still a significant feat. The fact this car has AC, power leather seats & can somewhat turn a corner with a stick is even more of a feat.


Trick chassis FTW again, only place with them in stock.

And inflation sucks (ouch), rears were like $410 shipped to my door last year. The fronts are north of $455 this year to my door. That's honestly not that bad.

 

[motorheadmike]

The 3.73's are also not correct for my mph. They'd be fine if I had a loose converter and I could live with some converter slip but 0% slip clutch life.... The cam makes peak power at ~6700 but i've been shifting at 6250 for years out of misinformation

Watch your charge air temps with the added rotor speed... you might end up losing power if efficiency falls off.

4.30's will put me through the traps at 123mph/6300 rpm and 131mph/6800 rpm so some room to grow if I find power I didn't know I had.

How much time do you anticipate losing during your shifts? The mechanical advantage of the gears will be an improvement, but you still have a set amount of time off power. The gears will help with maintaining the acceleration rate... but, not as much as more power.

Despite the internet d!ck (keeping it PG around here, give me a break 😛) measuring contests, driving a 40 year old car to the track, clicking off a 10, and then driving home these days is still a significant feat. The fact this car has AC, power leather seats & can somewhat turn a corner with a stick is even more of a feat.

I feel targeted by that power leather seat comment... and somehow feel challenged to run a 10.9? (I wish I could have 4.56s.)

I look forward to seeing this project progress into the car you will make it become.